Posted by: Kerry "V i p e r" Rosenberry on August 14, 2003 at 20:50:36

If you stop and think about it for just a minute, you'll realize that there's a lot of competition in the scenario producer biz. Some is friendly, so is not so friendly. With this in mind wouldn't someone be doing some major undercutting if it was possible? But, guess what? They're not. Why? Because we are doing it as cheaply as possible. I started in 1996. That's eight years of Viper Scenarios. Know what? I haven't raised my prices in all those years. If you have ever run a business, owned one, or have known anyone who has you will realize how hard it is to go eight years without ANY price increases. Now, think about this; I am running a business where I am paying 2003 prices for everything, but still only charging 1996 prices for it. With that in mind, do you think there's much I can trim from what I charge today? No, what that means is that I'm making that much less per player than I was then. Trust me, nothing has gotten cheaper for me, and few things are even the same price. And when I say distributor, I don't mean "Billy Bob's Wholesale Paintball Supplies, serving Johnson county since 1988." I have the sense to go straight to the top when getting paint. I always have. I was first with Nationall Paintball Supply South, then Diablo, and presently National Paintball Supply. You can't go to the manufacturer. They are all under contract and can't sell to me. You cannot buy any of the major brands from the factory. The factory makes the paintballs for National or PMI or whoever. There are some lesser brands that do their own encapsulation, but I don't know how players would feel about going to a large event and buying some of these independents that they may or may not have heard of like Viper Venom, All American, Nelson, or others. To make anything, and to be able to keep prices low, dealing with the top allows me to get it cheaper than pallet pricing. This is a big company. I do big events. I've bought as many as two million balls (1000 cases) at a time. As far as the refund goes, do you think the field owner give me a refund? The paint supplier? What about the office supply company? Magazines? Reffing staff? The company that made the nice event patches? None of them will. So where is this magic refund money supposed to come from? I am not going to lay out numbers here. But think for a moment about my earlier statement. If this could be done cheaper some new guy would be doing it cheaper to build a following. However, out of all of the major producers out there the cheapest is Black Cat Productions. He's got me beat by five bucks. FIVE BUCKS! That's not enough to even matter on the player's end, but it's a huge bite out of a hundred player game. So what if I were to lose five here and five there? Or ten? Say ten bucks off of registration and twenty bucks a case of paint. That's about thirty bucks a person. Times a hundred players that's THREE THOUSAND DOLLLARS. If you knew what I made in actual profit on my last Arizona event, or what any scenario producer makes on the road, you would realize how ludicrous it is to suggest that figure. Suffice to say that we would basically be working for free. You have to understand that this is a full-time job. There is no way around it. With the hours it takes to prepare, and the countless days you would have to take off to drive to and from every event you produce, there just isn't a way to be serious about this and do it as a "second job." Believe me, in the current economical climate, I have looked for way to cut costs enough to be able to slash prices and boost attendance. I think everyone probably has. I mulled over how to make BYOP work for large-scale scenarios events. But it all comes down to numbers. There is just no way to do it without running yourself into the ground. I don't want to have to quit, nor does anyone else. It's simply, really. Open a fat food joint of your own. Now sell burgers like Burger King and McDonald's, but price everything 30% below theirs. Now, survive for five years. No one had tried. Why not? They would make a killing with lower prices, right? No. The have the unfortunate situation of having bills to pay. So does every scenario producer. I'll say it again; If it could be done cheaper, or with BYOP, one of the large companies would have done it. We haven't. It's not for lack of desire to have lower prices. It's not out of greed. It's not because we don't care. It's because we are doing it as cheaply as we can without cutting quality, and quality is important. Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry Scenario Director Viper Paintball Scenarios www.viperpaintball.com : A pallet of paint gets you your first price break. Then 4-5 pallets for your second price break. : DeaL Direct with the manufacturers. : If you are going through a distributor then he is going to make sure HE gets HIS cut of the Pie and doesn't give a hoot about YOUR Problems. : : Now a manufacturer has a vested interest in introducing their product to new players. : If it IS a distributor, then get one that carries a variety of brand. Then you simply put together an order based on the number of players that pre registered and PRE Paid for their paint order. : The producers are always going NUTS trying to guess about how many people will play. You try to give players INCENTIVES to Pre Register. : The Pre Paid entry fee and paint order could be one. : You don't have a field. So form a synergistic business relationship WITH a field or two or three. They can buy excess paint left over from a game. Players from THEIR field that Pre Register can BYOP bought at THEIR Field : He promotes the games, sells paint, you get players and a place to take your excess paint. : I know One field that does a MIX. If you buy a half case of paint from him, you can use any other paint you want to bring. : I take my invisible paint tweaked for scenerio play and use his half case of field paint for rec ball play the following weekend. : There is the perpetual dilemia that producers have which is to keep the registration fees to a minimum to atract players to the game or at least not scare them off. So the costs are 'Hidden' in the inflated paint prices, concessions, camping fees etc. etc. etc. : When they give US a price break of $10 to pre register, it is TOO easy NOT to pre register until you see the 3 day weather forcast for the weekend. If you are a fair weather player with an electro something, you would rather eat the $10 and just show up rather than burn a tank of gas and get rained out. Give me a real price break if you want pre registrations. : A $30 price break will buy me some gas and paint. : I'll take a chance on the weather instead of you. : How about pre registered players getting $30 off the NEXT game. That is an incentive AND builds your customer base. Is this guy going to come alone? No, he is comming back with a couple of cars full of kids. Then THEY come back with their buddies... Sounds like a win - win. : I say, CHARGE Us what you have to have and tell us what we GET. Don't hide costs. Nobody like suprises. : Over 3000 people paid a $60 registration fee and another $80 for a case of field paint at D Day this year. If it is a good game and word gets around, people WILL COME. : Let us bring our own paint and charge us a fee for the privilage. I wouldn't put it in the pre registration fee. An add on. Many players don't care that much about paint quality as they routinely shoot field paint anyway. : All we want is a choice... Same money to you regardless of if we bring our own or buy yours... : Speaking or Rain Days. YOU should do something for the pre registered players that don't come because of bad weather and playing conditions. : We all should understand you have spent money and time whether or NOT is rains. Not all of it should be refunded. But some should. : Now I'm not talking about a 50% chance of afternoon showers. I'm talking about the field getting 3" of rain in the last 24 hours or something like that. The roads and camping areas not negotiable with 2 wheel drives. Forecasted severe weather, hail, damaging and tornado warnings and watches. Steady Pouring Rain all day with 1-2" of rain expected. : But these are YOUR customers. If you say sorry, no refund, they wind up not even attending one of your games and you left them with a bad taste in their mouth. : You should give them the equivalent of a store credit and apply the fee to the next game they come to. At least you don't lose a customer. You keep one. : AND the Scenerio Players need to understand that wars go on day, night, rain, or snow. If they want to attend a War Game Scenerio they need to be ready to play in all weather conditions. : Not to say a couple of bonfires to keep warm by between games isn't a good idea when you are soaking wet and 30 degrees with wind blowing. : I still see people show up for scenerio games on no changes of clothing for a 2 day game. : It is their own fault but kids are still kids and need a little direction from time to time. Tips and preparation. : : Here is one. You going to play a war game and run around the woods all weekend? Do it like a REAL SOLDIER. Wear Boxers. Boxer Underwear. Briefs will chafe your crouch RAW. ASK ANYBODY that has been in the military. Boxers RULE! : And some VASELINE to lube up for the weekend BEFORE the day of play is ALSO a real smart move.. Sounds gross but it simply works. You are going to shower when you get home anyway. : You will notice on Sunday morning guys walking around bow legged like cowboys. Taint because their masculine. They are raw between the legs. : And NOBODY EVERY TALKS about it. They will trade every other paintball problem and tip in the world but not THAT ONE! : And bring a couple of changes of clothing in case you get wet and muddy. Get dry before you go to bed unless you want a miserable night. : We go camping for three weeks in the wilderness. We take ONLY three changes of clothing for the whole trip. Sacred rule always have one dry change. It can be dirty but it has to be dry. When you put the last set of cloths on, you hunker down and stay in the tent or under the rainfly and dry your other clothes. : Dale

Follow Ups: expense cutting/cost saving changes in prices dave "_dave__from_the_coalition" ciarcia 12:51:36 09/01/03 (0) Bah! Hipkiss - Twilight Zone 13:22:44 08/18/03 (0) Re: it's NOT at all like fat food skunkboy 23:34:06 08/14/03 (3) He has a REAL Good Point. ADVERTIZING Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 18:41:49 08/15/03 (2) To Recuit New Players. Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 16:55:57 08/16/03 (0) New players is the right Answer Darkstorm 01:14:40 08/16/03 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : If you stop and think about it for just a minute, you'll realize that there's a lot of competition in the scenario producer biz. Some is friendly, so is not so friendly. With this in mind wouldn't someone be doing some major undercutting if it was possible? But, guess what? They're not. Why? Because we are doing it as cheaply as possible. I started in 1996. That's eight years of Viper Scenarios. Know what? I haven't raised my prices in all those years. If you have ever run a business, owned one, or have known anyone who has you will realize how hard it is to go eight years without ANY price increases. Now, think about this; I am running a business where I am paying 2003 prices for everything, but still only charging 1996 prices for it. : With that in mind, do you think there's much I can trim from what I charge today? No, what that means is that I'm making that much less per player than I was then. Trust me, nothing has gotten cheaper for me, and few things are even the same price. : And when I say distributor, I don't mean "Billy Bob's Wholesale Paintball Supplies, serving Johnson county since 1988." I have the sense to go straight to the top when getting paint. I always have. I was first with Nationall Paintball Supply South, then Diablo, and presently National Paintball Supply. You can't go to the manufacturer. They are all under contract and can't sell to me. You cannot buy any of the major brands from the factory. The factory makes the paintballs for National or PMI or whoever. There are some lesser brands that do their own encapsulation, but I don't know how players would feel about going to a large event and buying some of these independents that they may or may not have heard of like Viper Venom, All American, Nelson, or others. To make anything, and to be able to keep prices low, dealing with the top allows me to get it cheaper than pallet pricing. This is a big company. I do big events. I've bought as many as two million balls (1000 cases) at a time. : As far as the refund goes, do you think the field owner give me a refund? The paint supplier? What about the office supply company? Magazines? Reffing staff? The company that made the nice event patches? None of them will. So where is this magic refund money supposed to come from? : I am not going to lay out numbers here. But think for a moment about my earlier statement. If this could be done cheaper some new guy would be doing it cheaper to build a following. However, out of all of the major producers out there the cheapest is Black Cat Productions. He's got me beat by five bucks. FIVE BUCKS! That's not enough to even matter on the player's end, but it's a huge bite out of a hundred player game. So what if I were to lose five here and five there? Or ten? Say ten bucks off of registration and twenty bucks a case of paint. That's about thirty bucks a person. Times a hundred players that's THREE THOUSAND DOLLLARS. If you knew what I made in actual profit on my last Arizona event, or what any scenario producer makes on the road, you would realize how ludicrous it is to suggest that figure. Suffice to say that we would basically be working for free. You have to understand that this is a full-time job. There is no way around it. With the hours it takes to prepare, and the countless days you would have to take off to drive to and from every event you produce, there just isn't a way to be serious about this and do it as a "second job." : Believe me, in the current economical climate, I have looked for way to cut costs enough to be able to slash prices and boost attendance. I think everyone probably has. I mulled over how to make BYOP work for large-scale scenarios events. But it all comes down to numbers. There is just no way to do it without running yourself into the ground. I don't want to have to quit, nor does anyone else. : It's simply, really. Open a fat food joint of your own. Now sell burgers like Burger King and McDonald's, but price everything 30% below theirs. Now, survive for five years. No one had tried. Why not? They would make a killing with lower prices, right? No. The have the unfortunate situation of having bills to pay. So does every scenario producer. : I'll say it again; If it could be done cheaper, or with BYOP, one of the large companies would have done it. We haven't. It's not for lack of desire to have lower prices. It's not out of greed. It's not because we don't care. : It's because we are doing it as cheaply as we can without cutting quality, and quality is important. : Kerry "Viper" Rosenberry : Scenario Director : Viper Paintball Scenarios : www.viperpaintball.com : : A pallet of paint gets you your first price break. Then 4-5 pallets for your second price break. : : DeaL Direct with the manufacturers. : : If you are going through a distributor then he is going to make sure HE gets HIS cut of the Pie and doesn't give a hoot about YOUR Problems. : : : : Now a manufacturer has a vested interest in introducing their product to new players. : : If it IS a distributor, then get one that carries a variety of brand. Then you simply put together an order based on the number of players that pre registered and PRE Paid for their paint order. : : The producers are always going NUTS trying to guess about how many people will play. You try to give players INCENTIVES to Pre Register. : : The Pre Paid entry fee and paint order could be one. : : You don't have a field. So form a synergistic business relationship WITH a field or two or three. They can buy excess paint left over from a game. Players from THEIR field that Pre Register can BYOP bought at THEIR Field : : He promotes the games, sells paint, you get players and a place to take your excess paint. : : I know One field that does a MIX. If you buy a half case of paint from him, you can use any other paint you want to bring. : : I take my invisible paint tweaked for scenerio play and use his half case of field paint for rec ball play the following weekend. : : There is the perpetual dilemia that producers have which is to keep the registration fees to a minimum to atract players to the game or at least not scare them off. So the costs are 'Hidden' in the inflated paint prices, concessions, camping fees etc. etc. etc. : : When they give US a price break of $10 to pre register, it is TOO easy NOT to pre register until you see the 3 day weather forcast for the weekend. If you are a fair weather player with an electro something, you would rather eat the $10 and just show up rather than burn a tank of gas and get rained out. Give me a real price break if you want pre registrations. : : A $30 price break will buy me some gas and paint. : : I'll take a chance on the weather instead of you. : : How about pre registered players getting $30 off the NEXT game. That is an incentive AND builds your customer base. Is this guy going to come alone? No, he is comming back with a couple of cars full of kids. Then THEY come back with their buddies... Sounds like a win - win. : : I say, CHARGE Us what you have to have and tell us what we GET. Don't hide costs. Nobody like suprises. : : Over 3000 people paid a $60 registration fee and another $80 for a case of field paint at D Day this year. If it is a good game and word gets around, people WILL COME. : : Let us bring our own paint and charge us a fee for the privilage. I wouldn't put it in the pre registration fee. An add on. Many players don't care that much about paint quality as they routinely shoot field paint anyway. : : All we want is a choice... Same money to you regardless of if we bring our own or buy yours... : : Speaking or Rain Days. YOU should do something for the pre registered players that don't come because of bad weather and playing conditions. : : We all should understand you have spent money and time whether or NOT is rains. Not all of it should be refunded. But some should. : : Now I'm not talking about a 50% chance of afternoon showers. I'm talking about the field getting 3" of rain in the last 24 hours or something like that. The roads and camping areas not negotiable with 2 wheel drives. Forecasted severe weather, hail, damaging and tornado warnings and watches. Steady Pouring Rain all day with 1-2" of rain expected. : : But these are YOUR customers. If you say sorry, no refund, they wind up not even attending one of your games and you left them with a bad taste in their mouth. : : You should give them the equivalent of a store credit and apply the fee to the next game they come to. At least you don't lose a customer. You keep one. : : AND the Scenerio Players need to understand that wars go on day, night, rain, or snow. If they want to attend a War Game Scenerio they need to be ready to play in all weather conditions. : : Not to say a couple of bonfires to keep warm by between games isn't a good idea when you are soaking wet and 30 degrees with wind blowing. : : I still see people show up for scenerio games on no changes of clothing for a 2 day game. : : It is their own fault but kids are still kids and need a little direction from time to time. Tips and preparation. : : : : Here is one. You going to play a war game and run around the woods all weekend? Do it like a REAL SOLDIER. Wear Boxers. Boxer Underwear. Briefs will chafe your crouch RAW. ASK ANYBODY that has been in the military. Boxers RULE! : : And some VASELINE to lube up for the weekend BEFORE the day of play is ALSO a real smart move.. Sounds gross but it simply works. You are going to shower when you get home anyway. : : You will notice on Sunday morning guys walking around bow legged like cowboys. Taint because their masculine. They are raw between the legs. : : And NOBODY EVERY TALKS about it. They will trade every other paintball problem and tip in the world but not THAT ONE! : : And bring a couple of changes of clothing in case you get wet and muddy. Get dry before you go to bed unless you want a miserable night. : : We go camping for three weeks in the wilderness. We take ONLY three changes of clothing for the whole trip. Sacred rule always have one dry change. It can be dirty but it has to be dry. When you put the last set of cloths on, you hunker down and stay in the tent or under the rainfly and dry your other clothes. : : Dale [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Rec Talk ]