Posted by: DaveA on March 22, 2003 at 13:55:35

Your points do not address mine. I add to the list, that Congress is the only institution in the Great Nation we live in that can declare war. Perhaps we have not declared war officially, and this is just the new way of getting what we want. The reason Congress is the one that declares war is because Congress is the representatives of the American People. It was done this way to ensure, or hinder, an Individual Leader in the Executive office from becoming a meglomaniac with unlimited powers of military force. Would Congress declare a war on Iraq now? Given the situation, apparently not. Given that they also havae access to much better sources of imformation than we the public typically do, one might consider that they are not just being wimps. Consider also that countries who have been traditional allies, such as France were not convinced sololy on the evidence that they were given at the UN or in diplomacy. If it were such a certain thing, the French as well as the Canadians, would definitely be in on this war. As for the UN resolutions, consider please, that as our president is fond of saying, you can't have it both ways. We can't hold up the UN resolutions of the past and say the violation of them is our legal basis for starting an invasion and then at the same time ignore the UN when it comes time for them to decide if we should cause such destruction and death as we are doing right this second. In the same breath we speak of criminal behavior by the Iraqi Govt against it's own people, but we refuse to be a part of the World Court and have declared that the UN is no longer relevant. What then, we are reduced to the laws of the playground, that ultimately it's our right to destroy, change, and rule over any peoples who do not adhere to our standards of PROJECTED behavior (NOT according to our standards of Actual Behavior) ? I urge you to consider other arguments as well as the simple ones being produced in many vehicles of the Media. Do you really believe everything that the news tells you? Do you perhaps see that the news is not always a vehicle for real truth, but is a medium for the manipulation of thought and therefore people? Consider that most of the top ranking administration are old hands from the days of the Vietnam war, a time when the Media had something of a freer hand, and the people of America seeing the first modern non-declared War and it's senselessness, clamoured for peace and eventually got it. Noone in the adminstration wants to let that happen again. We saw it in the first gulf war, control of the media was with an iron fist. We knew nothing of the War until years later. WMD. I urge you to look at this site's list of how our intelligence agencies failed prior to 9/11. These are all news releases which are unadultered, I checked copy against source copy for a selection. http://208.187.163.46/completetimeline/index.htm For WMD to be an actual threat to our country and people Iraq must have delivery systems. OBVIOUSLY they cannot send a missle our way. They cannot send a long range bomber. Can you not see this as a fact? Any time they launched a missle in Iraq for testing, we either bombed the launch site, or we noted it's site and test results. NO ONE can launch a WMD without testing the equipment. On paper things sound nice and effective, but in reality missles and missle systems and guidance systems do not just work like they would in a movie. They have to be Tested. There were no such tests done during the 12 years since the last war. If there were there has been no notice of those tests anywhere that I could find. No mention of these delivery systems was ever made mention by Powell or anyone else in their arguments that iraq has WMD. So delivery of WMD by hand? Such delivery doesn't just happen by someone taking a bomb down to Fedex. The commercials make it sound that easy, but it's certainly not. Go to that site, and you'll see how deeply our intelligence and other intelligence sources have been, and you'll see it's not such an easy thing to launch any sort of attack short of spontaneous less than WMD attacks. To again address the Chemical attacks on the Kurds in iraq. If you do any research you'll see that the Kurds of Northern Iraq have long been a separatist group. This is not some namby pamby petition signing peacenik group. This is as if the great Southern states of America decided to quit the Union. Not quite that much terrain, but you might be able to see what I'm saying. Our news says, Iraq gassed his own people. Turkey and Syria both have great worries if the Kurds gain autonomy. Kurdistan would create a huge problem to those two countries. We don't hear much about the Kurds that are killed in those nations, do we? I'm not by any means condoning Iraqs killing of the Kurds, but get it out of your head that Iraq is killing Mom and Pop on the streets of Baghdad. We should talk about Kurds, we set them up to be killed in the gulfwar when we offered them assistence in their uprising against Hussein and then and it's very very well documented, we left them high and dry, sometimes watching from relatively nearby while they were bombed or shelled. We encouraged rebellion, then left them to die. Let's get this straight, I'm not some one so naive as to think that war doesn't exist or have it's reasons. I do not say FCK war because I'm a flowereyed peacenik. I say it because this war is wrong. You and I will not see the benefits of this war. Except maybe in some sort of bravado pride that comes to bullies who have shown what strength in arms they have. Like Rome, and any other Empire, we may come to a time where we rule by the sword and gun, but at what price to our own Freedom and Humanity? Please, J in your concise effective manner, address my points as I address yours. I pray you can tell me something that I haven't also thought of or heard from the press. We are of course, both Americans and may god help us both reach towards the betterment of America and the World.

Follow Ups: Your wrong. The President can declare war. Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 12:49:48 03/29/03 (1) actually he can't DaveA 02:53:36 03/31/03 (0) Re: feel free to speak in a clear concise manner Jasleth 12:53:11 03/27/03 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : Your points do not address mine. I add to the list, that Congress is the only institution in the Great Nation we live in that can declare war. Perhaps we have not declared war officially, and this is just the new way of getting what we want. The reason Congress is the one that declares war is because Congress is the representatives of the American People. It was done this way to ensure, or hinder, an Individual Leader in the Executive office from becoming a meglomaniac with unlimited powers of military force. Would Congress declare a war on Iraq now? Given the situation, apparently not. Given that they also havae access to much better sources of imformation than we the public typically do, one might consider that they are not just being wimps. Consider also that countries who have been traditional allies, such as France were not convinced sololy on the evidence that they were given at the UN or in diplomacy. If it were such a certain thing, the French as well as the Canadians, would definitely be in on this war. : As for the UN resolutions, consider please, that as our president is fond of saying, you can't have it both ways. We can't hold up the UN resolutions of the past and say the violation of them is our legal basis for starting an invasion and then at the same time ignore the UN when it comes time for them to decide if we should cause such destruction and death as we are doing right this second. : In the same breath we speak of criminal behavior by the Iraqi Govt against it's own people, but we refuse to be a part of the World Court and have declared that the UN is no longer relevant. : What then, we are reduced to the laws of the playground, that ultimately it's our right to destroy, change, and rule over any peoples who do not adhere to our standards of PROJECTED behavior (NOT according to our standards of Actual Behavior) ? : I urge you to consider other arguments as well as the simple ones being produced in many vehicles of the Media. Do you really believe everything that the news tells you? Do you perhaps see that the news is not always a vehicle for real truth, but is a medium for the manipulation of thought and therefore people? : Consider that most of the top ranking administration are old hands from the days of the Vietnam war, a time when the Media had something of a freer hand, and the people of America seeing the first modern non-declared War and it's senselessness, clamoured for peace and eventually got it. Noone in the adminstration wants to let that happen again. We saw it in the first gulf war, control of the media was with an iron fist. We knew nothing of the War until years later. : WMD. I urge you to look at this site's list of how our intelligence agencies failed prior to 9/11. : These are all news releases which are unadultered, I checked copy against source copy for a selection. : http://208.187.163.46/completetimeline/index.htm : For WMD to be an actual threat to our country and people Iraq must have delivery systems. OBVIOUSLY they cannot send a missle our way. They cannot send a long range bomber. : Can you not see this as a fact? Any time they launched a missle in Iraq for testing, we either bombed the launch site, or we noted it's site and test results. NO ONE can launch a WMD without testing the equipment. On paper things sound nice and effective, but in reality missles and missle systems and guidance systems do not just work like they would in a movie. They have to be Tested. There were no such tests done during the 12 years since the last war. If there were there has been no notice of those tests anywhere that I could find. No mention of these delivery systems was ever made mention by Powell or anyone else in their arguments that iraq has WMD. : So delivery of WMD by hand? Such delivery doesn't just happen by someone taking a bomb down to Fedex. The commercials make it sound that easy, but it's certainly not. Go to that site, and you'll see how deeply our intelligence and other intelligence sources have been, and you'll see it's not such an easy thing to launch any sort of attack short of spontaneous less than WMD attacks. : To again address the Chemical attacks on the Kurds in iraq. If you do any research you'll see that the Kurds of Northern Iraq have long been a separatist group. This is not some namby pamby petition signing peacenik group. This is as if the great Southern states of America decided to quit the Union. Not quite that much terrain, but you might be able to see what I'm saying. Our news says, Iraq gassed his own people. Turkey and Syria both have great worries if the Kurds gain autonomy. Kurdistan would create a huge problem to those two countries. We don't hear much about the Kurds that are killed in those nations, do we? : I'm not by any means condoning Iraqs killing of the Kurds, but get it out of your head that Iraq is killing Mom and Pop on the streets of Baghdad. We should talk about Kurds, we set them up to be killed in the gulfwar when we offered them assistence in their uprising against Hussein and then and it's very very well documented, we left them high and dry, sometimes watching from relatively nearby while they were bombed or shelled. We encouraged rebellion, then left them to die. : Let's get this straight, I'm not some one so naive as to think that war doesn't exist or have it's reasons. I do not say FCK war because I'm a flowereyed peacenik. I say it because this war is wrong. : You and I will not see the benefits of this war. : Except maybe in some sort of bravado pride that comes to bullies who have shown what strength in arms they have. Like Rome, and any other Empire, we may come to a time where we rule by the sword and gun, but at what price to our own Freedom and Humanity? : Please, J in your concise effective manner, address my points as I address yours. I pray you can tell me something that I haven't also thought of or heard from the press. We are of course, both Americans and may god help us both reach towards the betterment of America and the World. [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tech Talk - Autococker / Minicocker ]