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In Reply to: Full Auto on Fields posted by Jayson Orvis on August 06, 2003 at 14:27:53:


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Posted by:
Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont
on August 08, 2003 at 21:03:39

Full Auto Markers

There is quite a history how the Insurance Ban of Full Auto Markers came to pass.

ONE eye doctor representing ONLY himself as a practitioner wrote to ASTM expressing consern that a stream of paintball MIGHT remove a mask and result in a secondary eye injury. No data, No documentation, No testing. Just an opinion from a concerned practitioner.

Larry Cossio then the owner of the National Paintball Association (an insurance company for paintball fields) was ON the ASTM commitee for paintball at the time.

Bud Orr the owner of WGP who is on record that his company would 'NEVER make a full auto marker' was ALSO on the ASTM paintball committee. AND WGP hasn't either. And lost a lot of money he could have made. A man of principal and conviction.

They voted to adopt that recommendation. 1. to reduce insurance risk for Larry's NPA and 2. to promote Bud Orr' product line and discourage the electro market. Remember, historically, the autococker was/is a pump gun conversion trying to compete with Angels at the time.

ASTM has YET to actually DO any testing to determine IF there actually IS a risk.

Well, I had a little anatomy in school and if you all just look into the mirror, notice your head isn't round front to back. TRY to screw off your mask by rotating it around sideways. It tries to tear your ears off...

The only way it can come off is the same way you take it off..... UP! Now how is a stream of paintballs going to get the leverage to lift a mask up off over your head. Not on the lense from a guy standing in front of you. You'd have to be standing over him with both feet and he would have to be shooting straight up!

If he was a mean person, he wouldn't be aiming for you mask either. You would be wishing for protection elsewhere besides your head.

TIME PASSES

Fields that have stores and stores that have fields, sell full autos to their customers and tend to ignore the insurance regulations and let their customers play with the full autos they sold them.

No stream of paintballs have not removed a mask yet. A RPG round has though. Launching Squad Buster Grenades out of mortars is now banned by guess who? Larry Cossio's insurnace company.
But a good fastball arm can probably throw a Squad Buster faster and with more accuracy than a mortar. Larry is probably trying to figure a way to ban baseball pitchers from throwing Squad Busters. Maybe with their other hand........

The tournament leagues have settled on semi auto rules only...

So every manufacturer of "high end" full auto and electronic markers makes their marker 'tournament legal'. With the exception of Tippman which isn't a high end tournament marker.

You just have to THINK about what percentage of all the MILLIONS of paintball players in this country that DON'T plunk down entry fees for tournament play. What percentage actually do? A fraction of the total players out there.

TIME PASSES

But LOTS of players on the receiving end of a very aggressive player with a 15 rps full auto in close quarters tend to object to being overshot.

The kids with a rental at a birthday outing INSTANTLY STOPS having FUN.

They don't ever come back or take up the sport of paintball. The field owners KNOW THAT IS BAD for BUSINESS. AND bad for the sport. So some try to curtail it.

Some enforce the ban by popular client demand.
Others force the rates of fire to 7 rps or less.
Others tell people not to beat up on the kids and show some judgement and common sense.
Others say screw it. Can't you take a hit?

Here in St Louis we have at least ONE field in every category mentioned above. I have a choice and go the the ones I have the most fun at. Interestingly, the "Can't you take a hit field" has the lowest attendance of all of them... We tell the players that like to over shoot people to just go play there.

TIME PASSES

Full Auto mode has become less popular to be used by a player in full auto capable marker.

They prefer burst and tournament style semi modes. Plenty fast.

The Quest for the Rate of Fire Group are more often inexperienced players with way too much money to spend on equipment and paint. They move away from it with experience.

TIME PASSES to Today:

The issues are:

Overshooting players. Using a semi or a full auto.

Semi electros can shoot the same ROF as many full autos. So the argument about Rate of Fire is becomming mute at your local field.

So is the safety argument. The 'concerns' have not been realized after the YEARS of play with full autos being used on the fields.

If there WAS a risk, the problem was with the MASK DESIGN and NOT the marker. Duh! The paintball mask manufacturer AND ASTM has to keep UP with the changes in the sport that affect safety equipment and risk to participants. You know kind of like the NASCAR safety committee does... Right?

Not with ASTM . Way behind the times....

How many of you have seen people lose a mask from just falling down or the little kid's mask that keeps falling down onto his chest because his head is too small in the one size fits all mask? He always pushing it back up so he can see.
Can ANYBODY buy a replacement elastic band that stretches out? NO.

Are those legitimate safety issues involving mask design? You bet and REAL ONES! Safety Problems you can SEE every weekend at your local fields. Start looking you guys... You'll see.

Did you all notice that JT now offers chin straps on their masks now for the scenerio crowd? We've been asking for them and they LISTENED! Good for them! JT is smart enough to EXCEED the obsolete safety standards set by ASTM.

JT will make money doing it... Ask the Mothers of America if they want a chin strap or not for $5 more? Airbags or not? Knee pads? Crossing guards?

I have a chin strap on my mask plus added throat protection, PLUS a full head helmet.

Last weekend I took a 250 fps RPG Nerf rocket round right in the facemask right over the chin area. The throat protection did the job. Just a smack. No big deal. Might have cracked a lense though. Would have come though.

SO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

Do Full Autos have a legitimate place in paint ball play?

Tournament Ball. No! Play by their rules or don't play.

Rec Ball? Sometimes but not too often. Often Long narrow rectangles offering few tactical approaches other than your basic frontal assault.

Scenerio Ball? Most often.

Why is that? Scenerio Games are WAR GAME SIMULATIONS. Tactical Situations develop just like for the Military. Room to maneuver, flank, ambush, snipe, etc.

What does the Military have for their standard infantry weapon? The M-16 with SWITCH SELECTABLE FIRE MODES!

No soldier would keep his M-16 on full auto all the time. You would have friendly fire casualities on your own side and civilians. You would run out of ammo and die shortly.

Does this Sound familiar for your basic spray and pray full auto player? Yep!

Why would a paintball player want full auto ALL the TIME.

They don't but because the Marker Manufacturer with two exceptions I know of, make their marker to accomodate Tournament Play Rules.

HOW MANY RESPONSE TRIGGERS do you think TIPPMAN has sold simply because it offers BOTH semi mode and a fast pseudo full auto rate of fire at the players fingertips at all times to use as the tactical situation calls for it.

When is KINGMAN and the E- Whatevers going to figure out to put a 3 toggle EXTERNALLY selectable mode of fire switch on their markers for the REC and Scenerio Players?

The smart ones would design it so you can take the grip cover off and TURN OFF the external switch and STILL be tournament legal. Duh!

I could design that circuit.....! That would add about 2 dollars in components.

Or just make two models or two grips styles, or a grip cover with the selectable switch that just plugs onto the board.

Would players buy it? You BET!

People would be less likely to get overshot if the player holding the marker could select FIRE MODES ON THE FLY as the tactical situation calls for it. You know, JUST LIKE THE MILITARY DOES in their WAR GAMES!

What we need is the right equipment to evolve with the sport. Scenerio Play is expanding RAPIDLY. The chin straps, helmets, throat protection and selectable fire modes on the fly will be in our future.

Add RPGs, LAWs, RAVs, Tanks, Mortars, Artillery, Helicoptors, Air Drops, Beach Assaults, Air Strikes, Tactical Nuclear Weapons, Teleporters, Satelite Communications, Night Vision, Power Generators, Flash Bang Grenades, Minefields, Satchel Charges, Booby Traps, and just about anything ELSE somebody can think of to put into a War Game Simulation and do it safely.

Last year there were 6 Scenerio or Big Games in Missouri if you count D Day. This year there were 22 GAMES!

The sport is continuing to evolve and the equipment manufacturers and insurance companies have to keep pace.

Personnally, I'm glad Larry C. now has some serious competition. There are several different companies offer insurance to the paintball fields.

When I inquire about a game, I ask WHAT COMPANY is insuring the game.... They get a GOOD response or a BAD response from me cause the NAME of the Insurance Company tells me whether or not and How I may use my RPG at the game.

Ditto. I demand to be given a CHOICE whether or not I can bring my own paint. If I want to pay him the PROFIT he would normally make selling me a case of paint for the privilage of bringing my own paint then GIVE ME A CHOICE! This spring there were two game the same weekend. I told the field paint only game that I would be going to the BYOP field that weekend.

Guess What? Two fields now allow players to pay an extra fee and bring their own paint. Last year they didn't. Competition for the scenerio players now exist too. At least around here. They listen to the players and try to give us what will bring us to THEIR Games.

It just pays to be a good consumer in this sport.

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