Sniper II - AutoCocker

 Written by: Martin Heffron (TIP#096) (mheffron@maestro.mitre.org)
Html Conversion by: Jim Burke (jburke@bates.edu)
 
 

Table of Contents:

• General Information
• Advantages (Pluses)
• Disadvantages (Minuses)
• Common Problems and Questions (incomplete)
• Modifications/Accessories
• Other Opinions and Comments
• IRONMAN Archive

General Information.

 Note: The following paragraphs refer to a picture. The GIF file is roughly 30kb.

 The body (A in picture) is made of machined aluminum. It has an upper chamber that houses the bolt (C) and a lower chamber that contains the main valve, valve spring, hammer, main spring, and a cocking rod (D).

 The next main part of the marker is the cocking block (B). The cocking block connects the bolt in the top chamber to the cocking rod in the lower.

 The basic idea behind the AutoCocker is to take a pump gun and replace the pump handle with a piston to pump the gun automatically. Hence the ram. The ram is controlled by a 3-way valve that is connected to the trigger. The ram, 3-way, and regulator are located under a cover on the front of the gun (E). The cocking block connecting rod run down the left side of the body. It connects the ram to the cocking block.

 When the trigger is depressed, the 3-way sends Co2 to the back of the ram's piston and it in turn pushes the cocking block back. When this happens, the block pulls the bolt and cocking rod back as well. The bolt is now open witch allows a paintball to fall into the chamber. The cocking rod is connected to the hammer, so the hammer is also pulled back until the sear catches on the trigger.

 When the trigger is released, the 3-way routes Co2 into the front of the piston, pulling the cocking block forward, closing the bolt. The paintgun is now ready to fire. Depressing the trigger again fires the paintball and begins the cycle again.
 
 

Advantages (Pluses)

Disadvantages (Minuses)

Common Problems and Questions

Question

As the proud new owner of an AutoCocker I'm looking towards the collective wisdom of the P-ballers on the net for some advice. I played with it this weekend in a completely stock configuration (straight out of the box) and true to many people's word, I did have some problems, i.e.. double feeding, chopping balls and such.

Answer

A Cooper-T ball detente will solve your double feeding problem.

Chopping problem? Make sure it is set to push the cocking block all the way back, every time you fire. I've seen mine, every few shots, stop with a little of the bolt still blocking the feed tube. Almost guaranteeing a chopped ball.

 If you have the self adjusting reg, (still check that the bolt goes all the way back every time you fire) its probably your trigger finger. Practice until you get the "all the way back - all the way forward" motion down.
 
 

Question

What would be the best incremental path a new owner of an AutoCocker would take.

Answer

Ball detente, better push-pin, and a finger groove grip are the first things I would do. Then get a motor loader. And when you're ready, send it out for a trigger job.

 Other than the detente, you will probably want an expansion chamber. Be careful. Spent $40 here, $100 there, and pretty soon you're playing paintball with a $1000 toy.

Question

One other thing, when it was working it worked great! The accuracy compared to my previous gun, Pro/Lite, was incredible. I've noticed many AutoCocker owners with sights on their guns, any suggestions.

Answer

Cool! Glad it shot well. I prefer to sight down the barrel. If the paint is flying straight, I can snipe from any range. 1 shot.

Question

Also, what is your opinion of the agitator loaders? Junk or a necessity? I've heard both.

Answer

I went a long time without one. It seemed like just another overpriced gimmick that is supposed to make your gun better. Then one day, during a scrimmage against Bad Company, I kept having to shake my gun to get it to feed. I noticed that every time it would stop up, I would pinch a ball. I realized that if there is only one ball in the feed tube, the blow-back causes the ball to bobble a little and the bolt chops it before it drops into the chamber. If the feeder was feeding, no problems.

Question

How about a Powerfeed? The guy I talked to at Worr Games said they are not needed. This makes sense, I guess, with the different air system from a mag.

Answer

No, you don't need a Powerfeed on an AutoCocker. There can be some blowback, even with the timing set correctly, but it is -much- less than an open bolt system.

I still need to type up answers for these questions

Question

Any other tips or tricks for the cocker would be great. I have a friend who is about a master machinist, and two who are gunsmiths, so I may even be able to handle something technical :-).

Question

Wouldn't a four inch barrel result in poor accuracy? Is it possible to purchase such a thing with all the upgrades, or do you have to do them, yourself. Will the Air America system work on the old AutoCocker? How does the "Rock" system work?

Question

I'm looking into getting an AutoCocker (most of the people I've talked to who have both a cocker and an Automag swear by the cocker) But my problem is that I've seen cockers with WELL over a grand in them, are all these modifications REALLY necessary? And how well does the gun perform stock? Durability and reliability are very important to me also, so any inf. in that area would be appreciated also.

Modifications/Accessories

-Cooper-T ball detente             $30.00  installed.
-Trigger Job & Tune Up              30.00  installed.
-Stainless Actuator & coupler       15.00  installed.
-Cut Block and Rod                  35.00  installed.
-Pro Hammer Kit (Nelson)            45.00  installed.
-"New" Light Rock Regulator         62.00  installed.
-Knob for Rock Regulator             3.00  installed.
-Quick Pull Pin                     17.00
-Lapco Grips                        17.00
-Venturi Bolt                       40.00

 It is a good idea to put a slightly firmer trigger return springs in than the owner will eventually want, then use a softer spring after the break-in period. This allows the 3-way a chance to wear in naturally. Some people have had 3-ways fail prematurely after being worked.

 Stores
Paintball Sports of Maryland
15932 B. Shady Grove Rd.
Gaithersburg, Maryland 20877
Contact: John Lee or Todd Barbee
Toll Free (800) 275-7763
(301) 948-7684
Fax (301) 948-8775

• Authorized GUN F/X Dealer, call for prices.
• Available Soon - Anodizing, both standard and custom colors. They will also be doing custom millwork.
• If you don't see what you are looking for, give them a call and they will get you the product(s) at the best price.
• Give them a call for a FREE price list.

• Your choice of color (Anodizing: blue, green, black, purple red,
• Plating: hard chrome, electroless nickel, or sand blasting)
• Ball Detente
• Stainless Steel Actuator Rod & Coupler
• Lightened Bolt
• Trigger Job and Tune Up
• Rock Regulator
• Clippard Ram
• Cut back Block and Rod
• Stainless Steel Push Pin
• Finger Groove Grips
• Nelson Spring Kit

Other Opinions and Comments

Thanks for the inf.. Everyone seems to agree, the Cocker out performs the Mag, once you get it going right. The best price I found on a Cocker was $300 vs. $480 for a Minimag. I wanted to buy new (pamper myself) and since the two are arguably fairly equal, all pros and cons considered, I decide to go with the lower priced cocker and put the difference towards improvements.

 

 

Cool. Good idea.

 

 

Probably will help if I describe my style: I tend to be more of a front line player than a sniper, but I am cautious. Because I am at school I won't be entering any major tournaments in the near future, and I prefer to hit what I aim at than to spray paint all over (one reason I went with the slower, more accurate gun).

 

 

Yea, me too, but it sucks when two guys are moving up on you, you put 3 well aimed shots on the first guy, the 2nd guy starts spraying his Automag all over the place as he runs for cover, and you look down and see that a lucky shot hit you in the gun. (it happens allot!) Eventually, you will want a trigger job so you can "give them hell right back!" The best I've seen was done at Pacific Paintball by Chris. IMHO he's an AutoCocker master.

 

 

With the summer coming on, and since I'll be in California, will I need a new regulator? I was told that a reg or an exp. chamber were a must below 38F. How necessary are they in warmer weather? Does the bottle or bottle setup affect this?

 

 

You don't need anything to play in warm weather. Guns prefer warmer weather because the liquid Co2 will boil into gas quicker. The idea behind an expansion chamber is to give the liquid more area to expand into a gas. You want an Anti-Siphon tank. Imagine the tank mounted horizontally. (bottom line) They screw on your tank all the way and mark the top. Then they take the valve off of your tank and put a tube that is bent toward that mark. That way you the gun won't suck liquid when you start hammering. The problem is that when the gun starts to cool down from all this cold Co2 going through it, the gas starts turning back into a liquid.

 

 

I just had a ProHammer installed at PP. It uses a softer hammer spring and supposedly will not pinch balls. That, together with a Turbo-valve will allow you to play all winter.

 

 

Ironman Archive

 IRONMAN on Bud's new regulator
I have the new reg on my mini-cocker and have played both the world cup and Nashville with it. It has worked excellently and I never have to fiddle with it. It has a pressure switch built into it that stops CO2 from coming in once the pressure gets up to a certain point. This not only helps prevent liquid from going through the valving but it keeps the regulation consistent as well. Essentially it is just a regulator with a pressure operated back check valve.
 
 

Question

Zander, What does Bud Orr's new regulator offer that the Rock doesn't? My local shop sells them at the same price. The salesperson said that two Disadvantages to Bud's is that it doesn't have a blow off valve, and isn't externally adjustable.

Answer

The reason Bud's new reg is not externally adjustable is 'cause it is self adjusting. The only thing the internal adjust does is set the outside tolerances for the self adjusting mechanism. There is no need for a blow off valve that I have ever seen. The reg. has a liquid control valve inside it so that when the pressure in the line goes up the reg shuts off the in flow until the liquid inside it has been shot out. The reg. is also completely modular so anything you have to do to it is easier, and if you want a different size expansion chamber you could have one made. All I know beyond that is that it works great in all temps. which the stock one does not. Also it means that it makes the gun more idiot proof approaching the less experienced player market is the goal in that of course. Zander of the IRONMEN

Venturi Bolt

Question

Wednesday April 06 1994 11:22, Raymond Yam wrote to All: I have not tried it but have heard that Bob Long, Captain of the Ironmen also makes a venturi bolt for the AutoCocker. His version is reported to be lighter then Smart Parts. A friend of mine is going to get it in a few weeks. I will report back them.

Answer

Hmmmmm..... I was under the impression the Ironmen were using On-Target venturi bolts. Maybe not. I've tested the On-Target bolts, and found them to be excellent. At least, shooting about 1,000 balls in a day without a single ball break in my 'cocker tells me they don't break balls.

- -John Hamilton

Question

How Does the Auto-Cocker perform in game situations?

Answer

Since I play for Bud Orr's Factory team I am going to give you a positive review of this gun. I will point out though that I was playing with his products by choice before we were sponsored and we sought him out because we felt that his products were the best.

 The Auto or Mini Cocker is one of the most widely used guns on the tournament circuit. The only other gun that comes close is the Automag.

 The Auto-Cocker uses a pneumatic ram activated by a 3-way switch on the trigger. This accounts for its longer trigger pull than the Automag. If you buy one be sure that you get one of the very new ones with the new self adjusting regulator, it works great and means that you will never have to adjust anything regarding air pressure again.

 I have played the last two tournaments with my Mini and that is the model I recommend. It costs $100.00 more but you get a Bottom Line, 20oz. anti-siphon, lightened bolt and block, and a better trigger pull than the Auto. This is about $175.00 worth of stuff so it is worth it. Also it is shorter and lighter.

 It is by far one of the most accurate guns ever made and with the Brass J & J barrels it is amazing. It's firing rate is comparable to the Automag when correctly timed (about 7-8 balls a sec) , but has a longer trigger pull. It is fairly heavy, I personally like it, it gives a flatter bead in rapid firing, but does take a toll on the arms in long or hilly games.
Zander of the IRONMEN
 
 

Question

Why does the velocity increase after shooting the cocker for a while?

Answer

The increase in velocity is something that has occurred due to the new lighter valve springs now being put in the gun. What happens is when you stop shooting for a while gas expands in the gun and puts back pressure on the valve. Then you tune it in and the valve is not opening fully. Then when you have been shooting for a while, colder more condensed CO2 comes through and this back pressure stops and you all of a sudden get a vel. increase. This is especially true with expansion chambers. Ways to stop it: Use Bottles acclimated as best as possible, Disconnect bottles in between games, Dry fire a lot to equalize everything before tuning gun.

Question

Okay, lets see if this helps ... The gun usually begins to rise during a game which is when it is constantly firing. I.e. not stopping very long and if so only long enough to move up on opponents etc...... If you still feel that the problem is still the same then is there a more permanent way to fix it? Firing the gun (dry fire) is not really an option because it would en up burning up more parts on the gun. Can the spring be replaced or the valve and correct it? BTW the tank IS disconnect between games (remote quick disconnect). Thanks! Mike

[NOTE: The above paragraph actually appearsthat way in the FAQ. If someone has a fix for it, will they please send it to me? - - Jim]

 I used to get all my work done at Foxhunters but their airsmith is gone now.

 Now LAPCO, Air America, and Swiftline do all our work. I would say with confidence however that Skip Swift at Swiftline does the best Bud Orr modification on the planet and that is probably why he is the only authorized Worr Games East.

 Yes the rock and the Air America device are redundant that is why the combo woks twice as well as just one. The only difference I would say is that the America chamber actually stops the liquid before entering the gun with multiple expansion, filters, and re-expansion chambers and is machined for the gun. It isn't one of those 3.5oz. retro fit things. This allows for the CO2 to be hard-tapped back to the bottom line which gives the gun a front grip and a generally custom and slick appearance. The rock allows liquid already in the gun to expand further and allows for you to shoot liquid if you have to, while giving you a far more sensitive adjustment on the regulator. All these things significantly increase the life of your ram and keep you playing in cold temps. The porting I mentioned is a widening and honing of certain CO2 passages in the gun as well as drilling holes and machining excess to lighten parts that either don't need to be as heavy or perform better lighter. The other modifications Swift does are: Drilling a special hole through the top of the receiver and hammer so that the sear adjustment can be fine tuned without taking the trigger assembly off. He grinds the main spring so it doesn't rub the firing pin. He also puts an allen screw through the back of the trigger assembly that can be adjusted to fine tune the trigger pull. He lightens the bolt and generally streamlines all the internals so that they mate perfectly, thus negating any manufacturing sloppiness. I hope this answers your questions if there is anything else don'thesitate to ask.

 IRONMAN on trigger job

 Alexander Franklin Rose <ar2z+@andrew.cmu.edu wrote:
Ken and All,
I am very sorry to hear about the way you were treated by John and I had hoped that he would have at least by now told you what you spent $60.00 on. Obviously he realizes how simple a trigger job is and does not want people to try it at home. I have never seen John's work to my knowledge so I am speaking of the trigger jobs that I have seen and done.

 This is what a good trigger job for $60.00 should include as I see it.

1. LAPCO Stainless 3-way rod and coupler
2. Removal of safety
3. Polishing of the trigger and sear faces
4. Either honing the 3-way barrel, or lathing out a few thousandths from under the 3-way O rings for smoother action.
5. A timing adjustment with the 3-way, hammer sear, and bolt clearance.
6. New softer sear springs.

 IRONMAN on Auto-c.

[I guess the following was posted to rec.games.paintball by Bill M. with a response by John Hamilton - - Jim]

As John Hammilton pointed out in a previous thread regarding power feeds, a well timed semi-auto will have little to no blow-back. This is especially true, I'm sure with the auto-cocker's closed bolt firing configuration. It is also relevant, when speaking about the 'cocker, that a mere 1/4 turn of the actuator rod collar either way from the "sweet spot" will induce increased blow back through the drop tube. In addition, we've had problems when switching out the stock o-rings on the bolt in favor of PMI-3 upper bolt o-rings, since the latter won't seal quite as well. We are searching for an o-ring with a slightly higher profile ("taller") made of the same material, so we can keep the low friction coefficient of the PMI o-rings but get a slightly better seal. A stock bolt with stock o-rings, and a properly timed 3-way, will feed just fine through a standard elbow with a VL2000 at any rate of fire you can achieve. Its just that the stock o-rings inhibit cycle speed and strain the ram, and getting a 'cocker to stay properly timed all the way through a game is a miracle.

True, the downward acceleration on the pellets in the tube will be the same for each pellet, but increase the number of pellets, and you have just increased the overall force. Example: a column of 10 pellets would exert a downward pressure 5 times that of a column of 2 pellets. Since the pellet waiting at the bottom of the tube would be supporting the weight of more pellets, it would more quickly overcome the friction of the surrounding surfaces, etc. and chamber faster. I would think the laws of hydraulics would be the closest analogy possible here, the pellets, are just much larger than water molecules.

 IRONMAN on Auto-C. Kit

 In-Reply-To: <Added.wgS7oMW00UdbQgmE5t@andrew.cmu.edu
Tomaz,
The Auto Cocker High Performance Pro Kit comes with the following:

1. WGP new self regulating regulator . . . requires no adjusting & works w/liquid 2. Clipper ram kit . . . faster action
2. LAPCO stainless 3-way rod . . . adjustable for fine timing adjust
3. IRONMEN bore drop extension(by J&J) . . . increase pressure on balls = faster feed
4. Stainless Fast pin . . . push button bolt fast pin
5. K-C synth. low temp.oil . . . doesn't gum up bolt in low temps.
6. Extra replacement hose . . . for ram and regulator
7. Full instructions and operating tips by me Zander of the IRONMEN and a computer generated and labeled diagram to help you.

 If you want to know what else we use on our guns we all use Air America Thumpers, J & J performance brass barrels, and 20 oz. anti-siphon tanks.

 All of which are available at I & I Sports. (*we are not sponsored by I & I as a team)

 IRONMAN on tune ups

Question #1 what bolts do the Ironmen use?

Answer

We mostly use lightened aluminum polished bolts modified from stock ones by Swiftline in Connecticut. Some of use especially those of us with unanodized receivers use the Zylatron two O ring bolt from LAPCO. (If you have an unanodized receiver and an unanodized aluminum bolt up against each other they cause a lot more friction and can even seize up the gun)

#2 Which is the best Bud Orr auto trigger?

Answer

The best auto trigger is the one that Foxhunters in Castro Valley Ca. used to do but the business was sold so I don't know if the new ownership still does them. However Skip at Swiftline does a version of the same thing. It is a rod that comes out of the safety hole on the trigger assembly (like all Sheridan type auto trig's) but a section of the receiver where the pump arm slides is hollowed to allow an adjustable fitting which in turn is bolted to a small brass tube arm that slides up and down on the rod from the trigger assembly. I know this sounds hoaky but if you saw it you would realize how slick it actually is.

#3 How do you smooth out the sniper II?

Answer

Send your gun to Skip at Swiftline, look him up under Swiftline or Worr Games East in the mags or Connecticut inf.. Otherwise Get one of the newest and shortest Smart Parts barrels. Get the aforementioned autotrigger. Get the new quick release bolt and a stainless fast pin. You can find the fast pins in sail boat stores. Or you can order the whole assembly from LAPCO. Grind down the ends of your mainspring so that they are flat. Use a motor loader. That's all I can think of if you need specifics about certain areas buzz me again. Zander of the IRONMEN

 Next I have one Mini-cocker and one pump gun. Both of which have had work done but nothing that extraordinary. They both have worked unquestionably at every game and tournament I have attended. Some people don't mesh well with the gun. It all boils down to some fine tuning and knowledge of how to handle it. Some people do real well with it some don't. Bud's new self adjusting regulator is a step that he is making in that more user friendly direction. The biggest problem people have with the gun usually boils down to regulation or timing. So between that and the LAPCO adjustable 3 way rod and coupler you should be fine.

 IRONMAN on Mini-Cocker Specifics In-Reply-To:
 
 

Question

How much has the weight been decreased? How good is the accuracy compared to the AutoCocker (with the very short barrel that apparently is supplied)? Has it got any other features the AutoCocker doesn't have? How much is one of those in the states? I've also heard that it is supposed to be made in a limited edition only, is this correct? Another question which goes as well for the AutoCocker is about the ball retention spring, like the one the Illustrator has, that can be fitted. Is it an essential thing? Does the Ironmen use it (I guess one of these questions really is enough)? How much would such an operation cost? The last question: the AutoCocker unit? What about it? How much is it? How necessary is it for colder climates? Will these questions ever end? Can anybody answer them?

Answer:

MY RESPONSE, I can answer most of these. Another question that was asked which I will answer first is; Is the Mini-Cocker better in low temperature than the Mini-mag? This as in most things in Paintball is a matter of preference. The thing is, is that neither gun performs well in real cold conditions and below 40 de. F (or 5 deg. C for our European players) it is better to just play with a solidly built pump gun like a Sheridan base, Sterling, or my favorite the Sniper 2. However in the cold with semis there are two big things to weigh, they are: That the Auto/Mini cocker system usually just slows down when filled with liquid and can be cleared usually just by disconnecting and reconnecting the bottle. And the other: That the Auto/Mini mas are super light and easier guns to get to know. The other thing is that there are some great aftermarket products like the AIR AMERICA filter/expansion chamber ($300.00) and the "ROCK" regulator by Palmer's Pursuit (under $50.00 I am fairly sure) Both are built just for the AUTO/MINI- Cockers which can almost completely stop liquid, in any temperature above 35 deg. F anyway. I tested this myself with the new Mini Cocker and an anti-siphon twenty ounce that was over filled and it took me fifty shots straight down to get liquid into the gun and about ten shots to get it back out again shooting level. The point is that I could actually use the gun under 40 deg. F. The next problem was that when I rapid fired for a while it iced the bottle and I would have to change it all the time. I do not know how to stop this. The mini-cockers weight has been reduced about 20% from the Auto-Cocker. The accuracy is excellent, exactly what you would expect from all Budd Orr stuff. (There is a considerable crack with the new 4 inch barrel though) The only new features besides its lightness and smallness are: Stainless fast bolt pin with push button detent balls, All hand built and customized to itself (i.e.. burnished ground and polished to take out any imbalances that occur with larger production) built in bottom line, vented front cover, anodized and lightened bolt. and a bunch of other little things. cost is $550.00 US. with 20 oz. and bottom line. Yes it limited edition, however I have a feeling that it is just on a more by order basis, I don't think they will actually deny someone one when they reach a certain production number. The last thing is the ball detent. Yes it is worth it on any Sniper or Cocker, especially in cold weather or when shooting small bore paint. Yes all of the IRONMEN use it and I think the modification is $45.00 by LAPCO in San Diego CA. And the "rock" regulator by Palmer is essential for cold weather too but even better is the AIR AMERICA unit and all three of these things with an anti- siphon or especially a remote, it is almost impossible to get liquid into the gun. How's that for answers? Anything more please post it.

Zander of the IRONMEN