Posted by: gregh on June 30, 2003 at 18:30:14

What is the TP test? Update also. Using the online guide mentioned I was able to get the gun to be able to be used yesterday. What I found from the experts that changed everything was the bolt was about half way in the feed tube when sear engages as cocking rod was way out of whack and I adjusted the trigger shaft. The gun is not accurate now but the velocity is consistent chrono-ing at 268-273 everytime tested through out the day. As far as what the gun has a complete Oracle front end and as mentioned free flow internals(I wasn't sure what front end it had on orig post) : First you just start inspecting it for the obvious. Ya need a clue where to begin. Thanks for all the advice and i am going to read through steps listed below. BTW the trigger travel is very little in the slot only going less than 1/2 way in the slot on the side of the trigger where the rod end is. I am assuming this is due to the upgraded front end and internals. I have tried to get the gun to cycle at 1/2 way through its limited travel area. : ALWAYS do the TP (toilet paper) test BEFORE AND AFTER any timing adjustments or trouble shooting. IF you have blowback, you have a good clue about which way to go with your sear lug and 3 way length adjustments. IF it works properly, you know your problem ISN'T a sear lug or 3 way timing issue.. : : Post back if you don't know how to do the TP test. : In the meantime, : Look at your TRIGGER TRAVEL and where in the travel things occur. The numbers are percent of the way from front to back that would be in the ballpark. Since the whole travel of the trigger is about 0.125", this is HARD to EYEBALL without some experience. A piece of masking tape across the trigger guard even with the 3 way shaft can help. Mark the front and end points of the CENTER of the 3 way rod. Then cycle the trigger with the beast gassed up in super Slow Motion numberous time and add a pencil mark or two where the below travel point events occur. : Front forward point. (0%) : The firing point. (5-20%) : 3 way activation point to recock the bolt.(70-90%) : Full Back Trigger point. (100%) : Then going forward traveling towards the front, the 3 way activation point to CLOSE the bolt. (30%-60%) : Notice they don't OVERLAP! None should overlap. : And if they are REAL CLOSE to each other, then that might give you a clue what you need to do when we get ready to make any timing adjustments. : The fix for anything listed here in trigger travel event points is the 3 way length adjustment or sear lug adjustment. : But don't touch anything till we get the inspection done. If it WAS working fine and no one messed with the 3 way length adjustment, I would need a real good reason to mess with it. : 3 way adjustments don't tend to 'creep'. : Since you DID change the 3 way recently, I would be prudent to make sure the little set screw attaching the union to the 3 way shaft is still there and snug tight. If not, align with the indentation on the 3 way shaft and retighten. : I assume you have a threaded 3 way shaft. If not, ditto for the other set screw. : : Next, other mechanical linkages that effect 'timing' and ball feeds. : Eyeball down the ball chute when the trigger is pulled and held. The bolt should clear the chute. : NOW cycle it several times and look at how the bolt behaves when it opens. Does it hesitate opening fully? 95% of the time isn't good enough. : It should open crisply without any variance or hesitation the full length and clear the ball chute. : If it just doesn't clear the ball chute at all, the rod length between the ram and back block needs to be longer IF it continues to do it with the Hammer cocking rod REMOVED. If it goes away with the hammer cocking rod removed, then it is likely the hammer cocking rod is too short and needs to be lengthened. : If it hesitates and then opens, then remove the cocking rod and repeat. If it goes away, that would point to the fact that your cocking rod that screws into the hammer might be a little short. : If it still hesistates, it might be low cocking pressure from the front reg. : Otherwise, it is a mechanical problem. Velocity screw turned too far in, ram to back block length too short, dirt and gum, hanging O rings on bolt. : : Ungassed, Pull the hammer cocking rod backwards and listen & feel for the sear to "click" and engage. Do it again and WATCH if you have 1/16" - 1/8" travel backwards travel AFTER it clicks and engages the sear. At or Less than 1/16" you may not be engaging the sear completely and consistently at higher rates of fire. The Burping mentioned could be the result. I like closer to the 1/8" extra travel past the sear engagement mark. : The "breaking" of paint when burping could just be the double/triple fed balls in the barrel breaking when it does fire. Engagement of the sear properly could possibly make ALL the problems you mentioned go away. : Now you will do the same with it gassed up and see if it is the same. You can't SEE/Hear it engage because it is moving too fast but you CAN put a piece of tape on the beavertail or side of the receiver and put 2 marks even with end of the cocking rod. : The first at the sear engaged position AND the second at the Full back travel point. : Now gas it up and cycle it several times SLOWLY and see if it consistently stops in alignment with those points. Then do it at a high rate of fire that you would normally use on the field. : They should ALL consistently be at the same travel points unless you short stroked it going fast. : Now, pull and HOLD the trigger for a second. RELEASE it with a super slow, creeping release. : The sear should engage every time. If it jumps over the sear lug, it will not cock or burp. : If it doesn't engage the sear properly, it is because of your 3 way closing BEFORE the sear comes up into the full up position. The trigger has a ramp inside that the sear rides on. The trigger has to travel far enough forward to permit the sear to be in the FULL UP position when the 3 way closes. Otherwise it will only engage partially, inconsistently, or not at all. : Just screwing the sear lug down to engage it is NOT the cure. The result with be some serious blowback, ball breaks, etc. : NOW one last check. : ALWAYS do the TP test BEFORE AND AFTER any timing adjustments or trouble shooting. IF you have blowback, you have a good clue about which way to go with your sear lug and 3 way length adjustments. IF it works properly, you know your problem ISN'T a sear lug or 3 way timing issue.. : Hopefully you have a clue where to begin by now. So you can start to mess with it.

Follow Ups: How to do the Toilet Paper (TP) Timing Test Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 13:08:31 07/09/03 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : What is the TP test? Update also. Using the online guide mentioned I was able to get the gun to be able to be used yesterday. What I found from the experts that changed everything was the bolt was about half way in the feed tube when sear engages as cocking rod was way out of whack and I adjusted the trigger shaft. The gun is not accurate now but the velocity is consistent chrono-ing at 268-273 everytime tested through out the day. As far as what the gun has a complete Oracle front end and as mentioned free flow internals(I wasn't sure what front end it had on orig post) : : First you just start inspecting it for the obvious. Ya need a clue where to begin. : Thanks for all the advice and i am going to read through steps listed below. BTW the trigger travel is very little in the slot only going less than 1/2 way in the slot on the side of the trigger where the rod end is. I am assuming this is due to the upgraded front end and internals. I have tried to get the gun to cycle at 1/2 way through its limited travel area. : : ALWAYS do the TP (toilet paper) test BEFORE AND AFTER any timing adjustments or trouble shooting. IF you have blowback, you have a good clue about which way to go with your sear lug and 3 way length adjustments. IF it works properly, you know your problem ISN'T a sear lug or 3 way timing issue.. : : : : Post back if you don't know how to do the TP test. : : In the meantime, : : Look at your TRIGGER TRAVEL and where in the travel things occur. The numbers are percent of the way from front to back that would be in the ballpark. Since the whole travel of the trigger is about 0.125", this is HARD to EYEBALL without some experience. A piece of masking tape across the trigger guard even with the 3 way shaft can help. Mark the front and end points of the CENTER of the 3 way rod. Then cycle the trigger with the beast gassed up in super Slow Motion numberous time and add a pencil mark or two where the below travel point events occur. : : Front forward point. (0%) : : The firing point. (5-20%) : : 3 way activation point to recock the bolt.(70-90%) : : Full Back Trigger point. (100%) : : Then going forward traveling towards the front, the 3 way activation point to CLOSE the bolt. (30%-60%) : : Notice they don't OVERLAP! None should overlap. : : And if they are REAL CLOSE to each other, then that might give you a clue what you need to do when we get ready to make any timing adjustments. : : The fix for anything listed here in trigger travel event points is the 3 way length adjustment or sear lug adjustment. : : But don't touch anything till we get the inspection done. If it WAS working fine and no one messed with the 3 way length adjustment, I would need a real good reason to mess with it. : : 3 way adjustments don't tend to 'creep'. : : Since you DID change the 3 way recently, I would be prudent to make sure the little set screw attaching the union to the 3 way shaft is still there and snug tight. If not, align with the indentation on the 3 way shaft and retighten. : : I assume you have a threaded 3 way shaft. If not, ditto for the other set screw. : : : : Next, other mechanical linkages that effect 'timing' and ball feeds. : : Eyeball down the ball chute when the trigger is pulled and held. The bolt should clear the chute. : : NOW cycle it several times and look at how the bolt behaves when it opens. Does it hesitate opening fully? 95% of the time isn't good enough. : : It should open crisply without any variance or hesitation the full length and clear the ball chute. : : If it just doesn't clear the ball chute at all, the rod length between the ram and back block needs to be longer IF it continues to do it with the Hammer cocking rod REMOVED. If it goes away with the hammer cocking rod removed, then it is likely the hammer cocking rod is too short and needs to be lengthened. : : If it hesitates and then opens, then remove the cocking rod and repeat. If it goes away, that would point to the fact that your cocking rod that screws into the hammer might be a little short. : : If it still hesistates, it might be low cocking pressure from the front reg. : : Otherwise, it is a mechanical problem. Velocity screw turned too far in, ram to back block length too short, dirt and gum, hanging O rings on bolt. : : : : Ungassed, Pull the hammer cocking rod backwards and listen & feel for the sear to "click" and engage. Do it again and WATCH if you have 1/16" - 1/8" travel backwards travel AFTER it clicks and engages the sear. At or Less than 1/16" you may not be engaging the sear completely and consistently at higher rates of fire. The Burping mentioned could be the result. I like closer to the 1/8" extra travel past the sear engagement mark. : : The "breaking" of paint when burping could just be the double/triple fed balls in the barrel breaking when it does fire. Engagement of the sear properly could possibly make ALL the problems you mentioned go away. : : Now you will do the same with it gassed up and see if it is the same. You can't SEE/Hear it engage because it is moving too fast but you CAN put a piece of tape on the beavertail or side of the receiver and put 2 marks even with end of the cocking rod. : : The first at the sear engaged position AND the second at the Full back travel point. : : Now gas it up and cycle it several times SLOWLY and see if it consistently stops in alignment with those points. Then do it at a high rate of fire that you would normally use on the field. : : They should ALL consistently be at the same travel points unless you short stroked it going fast. : : Now, pull and HOLD the trigger for a second. RELEASE it with a super slow, creeping release. : : The sear should engage every time. If it jumps over the sear lug, it will not cock or burp. : : If it doesn't engage the sear properly, it is because of your 3 way closing BEFORE the sear comes up into the full up position. The trigger has a ramp inside that the sear rides on. The trigger has to travel far enough forward to permit the sear to be in the FULL UP position when the 3 way closes. Otherwise it will only engage partially, inconsistently, or not at all. : : Just screwing the sear lug down to engage it is NOT the cure. The result with be some serious blowback, ball breaks, etc. : : NOW one last check. : : ALWAYS do the TP test BEFORE AND AFTER any timing adjustments or trouble shooting. IF you have blowback, you have a good clue about which way to go with your sear lug and 3 way length adjustments. IF it works properly, you know your problem ISN'T a sear lug or 3 way timing issue.. : : Hopefully you have a clue where to begin by now. So you can start to mess with it. [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tech Talk - Autococker / Minicocker ]