Posted by: Vampyr on January 27, 2003 at 20:33:20

Just a quick bit of physics... All the energy comes from the compressed main spring. with either hammer the time has to be solved from x=1/2 at^2 where x is the travel of the bolt and a is solved from F=ma where F is applied by the spring and m is the mass of the hammer. in both cases F is a constant. The energy applied to the valve is 1/2 mv^2 where v is =at. Whenyou solve for everything you find out that 1/2mv^2 is a constant because of the spring. time is shorter and velocity is higher for a lighter hammer to produce the same kinetic energy. If you have to just to see how the numbers run and certain things are constant, try X=1 mass 1 =1 mass2 =2 and run the numbers... V1= sqrt(2) * v2 or 1.4142V2 plug back to time, a=v/t 2= at^2, or 2=vT we know the velocity, so so the time to traverse with the light hammer is about .707 times the time required for the heavy. OK so it does show that a lighter hammer will have the same kinetic energy as a heavy hammer and that it takes an awful lot of difference in mass to have much difference. You will gain very little in reducing the hammer weight. halving the hammer weight should cut the time by .707, but how long does it take the hammer to travel it's throw, I'm betting you can't even shave 1 mS there. Between firing and bolt opening you need a delay of 4-7mS depending on velocity and barrel length. once the breech is open it needs to stay open until the ball drops atleast 87% of the way in. I used to remember this time off the top of my head and the difference between a RH and a vert, but the time is roughly 70mS for a RH. then you have bolt closing time (a couple more mS.) If you want to increase your ROF, you have to feed it faster, 10% improvement there is more time shaved than the total length of any other part of the cycle. You get by far more benefit from getting the bolt open faster than you do shaving the 1/4 mS from the light hammer. : : Just for Fun, try this on for size. : Well, when you go heavier or lighter hammer, you have to change the hammer spring pressure to get : the same 300 fps (all other things remaining equal) The lighter hammer HAS to have the same Inertial Mass to get the same result through the valve. It is mutually offseting somewhat in terms of rate of fire. The recocking mechanism has to offset the heavier spring and thus be theoretically, a tad slower. : Not to say the right combinations of front and rear springs, hammer weight etc. wouldn't be 'better'. : I agree we are splitting hairs at differences that no finger could achieve in semi mode. : But let me tell you about the fastest finger I have ever witnessed in semi mode. A recorded 13 bps on a Dark Angel. I lost a $3 bet. Glad to have paid $3 just to see it.... He had tweaked his trigger pull length and trigger return spring to produce that. It was basically, a response trigger that used the recoil of the marker to cycle the trigger. He just held it still once he got it going. : I DON'T want to take away the level of SKILL required by the player to do it. None of 6 other guys standing their could reproduce it when we tried. We could get some really fast bursts but not sustain it for half a second much less 3-4 seconds. Give the guy CREDIT! : It would also fire extremely fast if you pointed the barrel straight up.. Gravity on the trigger. Thats how he tuned it. When it would cycle at the right near vertical angle. : It would also fire if you shook it, bumped it. Now you appreciate the 'touch' it took to use it in a horizontal position? : But think about it? What position would you have to play in a tournament if you couldn't run without it firing spontaneously. Back. Well he did. He could put down some serious covering fire. He is #1 in my very short list of players in our area that actually CAN come close to using ALL the capabilities of an Angel. The rest are want-a-be s.... : Relative to your situation, using the marker's recoil to make your electronic trigger act like a response trigger has some merit worth consideration for the tournament player. : Recoil from air and ball being propelled forward and a couple of miliseconds before that happens, the hammer is moving forward. Both generate recoil backwards pulse. A heavier hammer and spring would tend to INCREASE recoil. Increasing the excess air discharge too? In-efficiency on purpose? Heck! How about using a heavier gas? Just a crazy thought...... : Wouldn't a heavier hammer, ram rod, ram pistion and bolt generate a forward recoil as the bolt closes as it recocks? What impact would a heavier bolt have in all this mili-second timing. : Would all this just offset each other and just not be a viable theory relative to the different design of the Angel. : Adding to the mass of the trigger could help overcome the friction involved between the trigger and frame. Especially if the center of gravity of the trigger was moved FARTHER away from the pivot point. Wouldn't that increase the potential travel of the trigger forward (relative to the Body) as the result of the recoiling body? : Do I have my physics right? : I'm just having fun messing with you minds. I don't care. I'm just a rec and scenerio player. Remember?

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V1= sqrt(2) * v2 or 1.4142V2 plug back to time, a=v/t 2= at^2, or 2=vT we know the velocity, so so the time to traverse with the light hammer is about .707 times the time required for the heavy. : OK so it does show that a lighter hammer will have the same kinetic energy as a heavy hammer and that it takes an awful lot of difference in mass to have much difference. You will gain very little in reducing the hammer weight. halving the hammer weight should cut the time by .707, but how long does it take the hammer to travel it's throw, I'm betting you can't even shave 1 mS there. Between firing and bolt opening you need a delay of 4-7mS depending on velocity and barrel length. once the breech is open it needs to stay open until the ball drops atleast 87% of the way in. I used to remember this time off the top of my head and the difference between a RH and a vert, but the time is roughly 70mS for a RH. then you have bolt closing time (a couple more mS.) If you want to increase your ROF, you have to feed it faster, 10% improvement there is more time shaved than the total length of any other part of the cycle. You get by far more benefit from getting the bolt open faster than you do shaving the 1/4 mS from the light hammer. : : : : Just for Fun, try this on for size. : : Well, when you go heavier or lighter hammer, you have to change the hammer spring pressure to get : : the same 300 fps (all other things remaining equal) The lighter hammer HAS to have the same Inertial Mass to get the same result through the valve. It is mutually offseting somewhat in terms of rate of fire. The recocking mechanism has to offset the heavier spring and thus be theoretically, a tad slower. : : Not to say the right combinations of front and rear springs, hammer weight etc. wouldn't be 'better'. : : I agree we are splitting hairs at differences that no finger could achieve in semi mode. : : But let me tell you about the fastest finger I have ever witnessed in semi mode. A recorded 13 bps on a Dark Angel. I lost a $3 bet. Glad to have paid $3 just to see it.... He had tweaked his trigger pull length and trigger return spring to produce that. It was basically, a response trigger that used the recoil of the marker to cycle the trigger. He just held it still once he got it going. : : I DON'T want to take away the level of SKILL required by the player to do it. None of 6 other guys standing their could reproduce it when we tried. We could get some really fast bursts but not sustain it for half a second much less 3-4 seconds. Give the guy CREDIT! : : It would also fire extremely fast if you pointed the barrel straight up.. Gravity on the trigger. Thats how he tuned it. When it would cycle at the right near vertical angle. : : It would also fire if you shook it, bumped it. Now you appreciate the 'touch' it took to use it in a horizontal position? : : But think about it? What position would you have to play in a tournament if you couldn't run without it firing spontaneously. Back. Well he did. He could put down some serious covering fire. He is #1 in my very short list of players in our area that actually CAN come close to using ALL the capabilities of an Angel. The rest are want-a-be s.... : : Relative to your situation, using the marker's recoil to make your electronic trigger act like a response trigger has some merit worth consideration for the tournament player. : : Recoil from air and ball being propelled forward and a couple of miliseconds before that happens, the hammer is moving forward. Both generate recoil backwards pulse. A heavier hammer and spring would tend to INCREASE recoil. Increasing the excess air discharge too? In-efficiency on purpose? Heck! How about using a heavier gas? Just a crazy thought...... : : Wouldn't a heavier hammer, ram rod, ram pistion and bolt generate a forward recoil as the bolt closes as it recocks? What impact would a heavier bolt have in all this mili-second timing. : : Would all this just offset each other and just not be a viable theory relative to the different design of the Angel. : : Adding to the mass of the trigger could help overcome the friction involved between the trigger and frame. Especially if the center of gravity of the trigger was moved FARTHER away from the pivot point. Wouldn't that increase the potential travel of the trigger forward (relative to the Body) as the result of the recoiling body? : : Do I have my physics right? : : I'm just having fun messing with you minds. I don't care. 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