Posted by: Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont on July 09, 2003 at 14:30:55

Spend some time cruising the features of different Spyder models and the suggested MSRP costs at: http://www.kingmanusa.com/spyder/index.html Then what you can actually get one for is considerable less. So Price Shop some. Unless you don't have access to Nitro Fills at your local field or paintball store, you can save yourself a LOT of grief and Avoid All the problems associated with using CO2. There is NO CURE for CO2 problems other than switching to Nitro - Period! So why spend YOUR money on features designed to minimize CO2 problems such as expansion chambers etc. $85 will get you a Brand New 50 ci x 3000 psi Steel Bottle. The same (or better) shot capacity per tank than a 20 oz CO2 bottle which will cost you $35 anyway. Only $50 more. Can't afford it? Yes you can if you can afford to buy a Shutter.... With Nitro, You don't need an expansion chamber of any kind. The Shutter has a infamous 'pressure regulator' that is widely disrespected. Drop the expense and extra weight. Nitro is a regulated pressure supply. It has a regulator built in it set around 900 psi. Do the math. $35 for a 20 oz CO2 bottle plus $50 for a regulator and you have spent the same money for a $85 regulated Nitro system. But you will STILL have problems with using CO2. CO2 is Full of contaminents and dirt. Hard on internals with or without the Kingman 'filter'. It makes your regulator very cold causing inconsistent velocities and you can still have shoot down with the operating pressure inside the CO2 tank drops below your regulator settings. Go Read this and related articles. http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml Kingman hasn't changed the performance of their markers in YEARs! What they have done is make their products flashier and imitate other high end markers. They market to you Newbies with cool sounding words you have heard before that offer no real function. For example, the 'Back Cocking Bolts" imitate the Autococker. The Low Pressure Chamber has no function unless you upgrade your marker with a low pressure valve, spring set, regulator, etc. By the time you spend that money, you could have bought an real Autococker. Spend your money on performance not cosmetics. With All That Said, I'm a Spyder Fan! Both boys run Spyders and my Spyder is a back up for my Tempermental Autococker. I can ALWAYS count on the Spyder working flawlessly. The REASON they haven't changed the internals is that they are very reliable, efficient, high pressure markers. Why change a proven marker? They tried to change the valve seals a few years ago and got a bunch of chronic leakers from quality control problems as a result. Since corrected. So what do you need on your Spyder? A bottom line is not required to play but is a given for most players. I suggest an Aftermarket Bottomline made for Spyders. Some of the Generic Bottomlines have oversized holes or even SLOTS to fit the Spyder AND other markers. They WILL wobble all over the place. You will break your grip trying to 'snug up' the bolts so it doesn't wobble. Get a bottom line with holes that fit the mounting screws without a lot of 'Wobbble'. Don't overtighten the bolts in those plastic grips. Have the grip covers OFF so you can see if your screws are too long / short / just right. The threads on Kingman hoses are Different than the rest of the paintball world. So make sure you include any 'adaptor fittings' in your pricing. Figure about $20- 25 for an aftermarket bottomline set up. Kingman charges a little more but it might be worth the aggravation to pay a little more since this is all new to you. Or Just buy the Xtra which comes with a bottomline. You don't need the expansion chamber but it makes a good handle if you don't mind hauling the extra weight. Or Compact 2 + 1 Which doesn't have the handle. http://www.kingmanusa.com/java/guns/compact_2in1.html Now you are DONE. It is a LOT lighter, fewer parts, more compact, quicker to point and shoot, and INTERNALLY identical except as noted above. With the Nitro bottle, marker, and bottom line, you have the more performance than the Cost of a Shutter and CO2 Bottle (over $200!). Now we can talk about an aftermarket barrel - maybe. WE use the stock barrels but we also shoot very high quality paint that cost $80 a case. The key to accuracy is paint quality -Period. Ours are like beads on a string out of a stock barrel. An aftermarket barrel can make really good quality paint shoot great! But an aftermarket barrel will NEVER make cheap field paint shoot like good Quality Paint - Period. The Mistake we all make is to go out and buy a barrel and THEN figure out we have to run good quality paint though it... Try the good paint first. Then get a barrel if you have money to burn. Borrow a barrel first and shoot some of your paint though it at the chrono station. See if that 'improvement' is worth the money you will spend. Add a Revy Hopper, elbow, and a Thermal Lense Mask. MOST 'packages' aren't packages at all. You can buy all those items individually for the same money. Don't buy stuff you don't want, need, ore plan to 'upgrade' within a year. Maybe you'll save a dime on shipping, but not if you buy it at your local paintball store. Consider paying a tad more at a retail store so you can get some free support and advise since you are new to the sport. We converted to LP on all but one Spyder. Runs about $50 for the valve and spring set. Then you need a regulator. $20-$80. We use the $20 used ones. We run right at 300 psi on the two we have done. A shutter runs at 600 psi by comparison. Look at the price difference between a real Low Pressure Upgrade for Compact 2+1 plus $100 and the price of a stock Shutter. Send me an email and I'll tell you how / where to get those $20 regulators when your are ready. PS: Buy a nice flashy, red and chrome job so I can spot you hiding in that bush..

Follow Ups: Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : Spend some time cruising the features of different Spyder models and the suggested MSRP costs at: : http://www.kingmanusa.com/spyder/index.html : Then what you can actually get one for is considerable less. So Price Shop some. : Unless you don't have access to Nitro Fills at your local field or paintball store, you can save yourself a LOT of grief and Avoid All the problems associated with using CO2. : There is NO CURE for CO2 problems other than switching to Nitro - Period! So why spend YOUR money on features designed to minimize CO2 problems such as expansion chambers etc. : $85 will get you a Brand New 50 ci x 3000 psi Steel Bottle. The same (or better) shot capacity per tank than a 20 oz CO2 bottle which will cost you $35 anyway. Only $50 more. : Can't afford it? Yes you can if you can afford to buy a Shutter.... : With Nitro, You don't need an expansion chamber of any kind. The Shutter has a infamous 'pressure regulator' that is widely disrespected. Drop the expense and extra weight. : Nitro is a regulated pressure supply. It has a regulator built in it set around 900 psi. Do the math. $35 for a 20 oz CO2 bottle plus $50 for a regulator and you have spent the same money for a $85 regulated Nitro system. But you will STILL have problems with using CO2. : CO2 is Full of contaminents and dirt. Hard on internals with or without the Kingman 'filter'. : It makes your regulator very cold causing inconsistent velocities and you can still have shoot down with the operating pressure inside the CO2 tank drops below your regulator settings. : Go Read this and related articles. : http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/gasses/co2dynamics.shtml : Kingman hasn't changed the performance of their markers in YEARs! What they have done is make their products flashier and imitate other high end markers. They market to you Newbies with cool sounding words you have heard before that offer no real function. : For example, the 'Back Cocking Bolts" imitate the Autococker. The Low Pressure Chamber has no function unless you upgrade your marker with a low pressure valve, spring set, regulator, etc. By the time you spend that money, you could have bought an real Autococker. : Spend your money on performance not cosmetics. : With All That Said, I'm a Spyder Fan! Both boys run Spyders and my Spyder is a back up for my Tempermental Autococker. I can ALWAYS count on the Spyder working flawlessly. : The REASON they haven't changed the internals is that they are very reliable, efficient, high pressure markers. Why change a proven marker? : They tried to change the valve seals a few years ago and got a bunch of chronic leakers from quality control problems as a result. Since corrected. : So what do you need on your Spyder? : A bottom line is not required to play but is a given for most players. I suggest an Aftermarket Bottomline made for Spyders. Some of the Generic Bottomlines have oversized holes or even SLOTS to fit the Spyder AND other markers. They WILL wobble all over the place. You will break your grip trying to 'snug up' the bolts so it doesn't wobble. Get a bottom line with holes that fit the mounting screws without a lot of 'Wobbble'. Don't overtighten the bolts in those plastic grips. Have the grip covers OFF so you can see if your screws are too long / short / just right. : The threads on Kingman hoses are Different than the rest of the paintball world. So make sure you include any 'adaptor fittings' in your pricing. Figure about $20- 25 for an aftermarket bottomline set up. Kingman charges a little more but it might be worth the aggravation to pay a little more since this is all new to you. : Or : Just buy the Xtra which comes with a bottomline. You don't need the expansion chamber but it makes a good handle if you don't mind hauling the extra weight. : Or Compact 2 + 1 Which doesn't have the handle. : http://www.kingmanusa.com/java/guns/compact_2in1.html : Now you are DONE. It is a LOT lighter, fewer parts, more compact, quicker to point and shoot, and INTERNALLY identical except as noted above. : With the Nitro bottle, marker, and bottom line, you have the more performance than the Cost of a Shutter and CO2 Bottle (over $200!). : Now we can talk about an aftermarket barrel - maybe. WE use the stock barrels but we also shoot very high quality paint that cost $80 a case. : The key to accuracy is paint quality -Period. Ours are like beads on a string out of a stock barrel. : An aftermarket barrel can make really good quality paint shoot great! But an aftermarket barrel will NEVER make cheap field paint shoot like good Quality Paint - Period. : The Mistake we all make is to go out and buy a barrel and THEN figure out we have to run good quality paint though it... Try the good paint first. Then get a barrel if you have money to burn. Borrow a barrel first and shoot some of your paint though it at the chrono station. See if that 'improvement' is worth the money you will spend. : Add a Revy Hopper, elbow, and a Thermal Lense Mask. : MOST 'packages' aren't packages at all. You can buy all those items individually for the same money. Don't buy stuff you don't want, need, ore plan to 'upgrade' within a year. Maybe you'll save a dime on shipping, but not if you buy it at your local paintball store. : Consider paying a tad more at a retail store so you can get some free support and advise since you are new to the sport. : We converted to LP on all but one Spyder. Runs about $50 for the valve and spring set. Then you need a regulator. $20-$80. We use the $20 used ones. We run right at 300 psi on the two we have done. A shutter runs at 600 psi by comparison. : Look at the price difference between a real Low Pressure Upgrade for Compact 2+1 plus $100 and the price of a stock Shutter. : Send me an email and I'll tell you how / where to get those $20 regulators when your are ready. : PS: Buy a nice flashy, red and chrome job so I can spot you hiding in that bush.. [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tech Talk - Spyder ]