Posted by: Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont on January 10, 2004 at 12:06:37

I was there on the Russian side. I agree with Julius and his point of view. I agree with Perry and his point of view. And as usual, I have MY point of view. I know both of them and consider them my paintball 'buddies' even if Julius has been on the German side all year and me Allied. We have a friendly rivalry between his tank and my RPG I have been developing. Julius, and every other player that is impacted negatively by a last minute change by a Producer or Field Manager are not happy about. That has happened to me this year on several occasions with tank and anti tank RPG rules. I showed up for a game with my RPG's Auto Rangefinder zeroed in for the 10 yard rule to ambush tanks by being as close as possible discover the Producer had INCREASE changed the rule to 20 yards! Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. Time and effort wasted and just had to make do. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. Julius did the RIGHT THING. He complained during the game and Perry rightly responded to get his tank back into the game rather than to change the rule in the middle of a game. Julius responded privately in person to Perry and I assume Bill the Producer to give them some feedback to help them make their games better games. They listened. Julius posted on the paintball forums to share his experience with other players and producers for their consideration. He was polite and professional about it. Didn't Slam anyone or make it personal. Perry did the right thing too. Perry was the Field Manager for the field AND Head Referee for the Game and ON the field taking care of business and trying to make sure everyone was having a good time. So I'm OK with him posting with Julius post about the circumstances of the game. That is his job and responsibity. I know he did try to get the Germans back into the game and did things in response to Julius complaint during the game. He personally went down to the German Command to give them missions because their Command radio went dead and they couldn't receive ANY mission assignments. All of this is for the other Producers and players to consider along with Julius' concerns and comment. Live and Learn. That is how the sport gets better and scenerio games more fun and realistic. Perry responded during by pulling the Russians back to their HQ mid day on Saturday so the Germans could regain control of the Fuel Depot and thus get Julius and the GERMAN TEAM back in the game. The Russians didn't LIKE giving up all that turf they fought all morning to take away from the Germans either. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. So the Russians just decided to rolled right over the top of the Germans again, re-captured the German Fuel Depot in short order, forced them all the way back into Berlin AGAIN, and started PRACTICING how to attack and enter Berlin (the trailer 'Village' complex)and destroy Hitler's Bunker which was Sunday's Final Battle for points. But Julius and his crew were 'out of gas' and not able to play with his tank - AGAIN! Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. The Russians were barely able to get a toe hold into one of the trailers at the break. The German put up a good fight defending Berlin. The German's got some 'Practice' defending Berlin for the Final Battle too. Still, the Germans were frustrated about having their side overrun at will and looking around for someone / something to blame besides themselves. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. But what the NEW tank / fuel depot rules did NOT anticipate was the Russian's being able to dominate 3/4 of the entire field all day Saturday. It was basically a one sided game most of the weekend even though the Germans had a slight numbers advantage. The German's also Tactical Marker's 40 man Scenerio team, and of course JULIUS and HIS Tanker Crew which IS a force to be respected on the field. Lets not omit the other German Tanks either. Take MY word for it... If you take out Julius and his crew's tank, you have DONE SOMETHING not many people get to do very often. You have to ambush them and THEY know what a good spot to be ambushed from looks like and they ARE READY. IF you get a RPG shot off, you DON'T get a second. It had better count. The Germans couldn't get out of Berlin to complete ANY mission points that was across the river. Like Perry said, he stopped giving the Russian's any missions on the field because all we had to do was send one kid down there to take that bridge and he could do it with no paint and air if he wanted too. Perry did the best he could to keep Julius and the German's in the game and having fun. Everyone has heard me Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump about when Producers that manipulate the game. Well, my Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump is about manipulating the game to the extent that the outcome of the game is CHANGED. I have NO problem with a Producer/Field Manager doing what Perry did to just try to keep it from being a rout, keep both sides in the game and doing missions, having a good time (win or lose)and NOT changing the outcome of the game. Remember this was the TOUR of DUTY SERIES with the Total of ALL the Season's Game Scores giving Bragging Rights for a Year to either the Allies or the Germans. The Bragging Rights for the Tour of Duty was based on the Outcome of the last game of the season - THIS GAME. EVERYBODY came looking for a GOOD FIGHT and the seasons Braggin Rights! "No Mercy" was ALSO a valid point of view too. NOW EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW THERE WERE SOME MAJOR TANK RULE CHANGES FOR THIS GAME THAT HAD NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE. First Bill Baily was the Producer for the Tour of Duty - Battle for Berlin Game. He shares some responsibility, credit, and blame for APPROVING the rule changes. It was a joint decision. All the other Tour of Duty Games pretty much had the same set of rules Before this one. And there were some suggestions to make it better and some complaints that needed to be addressed. So they tried something NEW to make scenerio gaming BETTER. When you Do, Some things WORK and some things DON'T Work. Some things CREATE NEW PROBLEMS you didn't anticipate and this situation was one of them. A little background here: The kill plates are mounted on each side of the tanks. All the roads for the Tour of Duty have been ONE WAY roads. So you have an Allied Tank traveling 20-50 feet behind a German tank and they don't ever have a shot at each other, tank on tank, with their cannons. D Day got silly at one point with Allied and German tanks circling Charlie Base like Indians riding around a cirle of covered wagons in a western movie. Germans in the middle of the field defending the base's bunkers and the Allies at the tree line trying to break through the circle of German tanks using Allied tanks for covering fire and break into and capture Charlie base. 30-40 yards of open ground with NO Cover. They Allied tried and died - repeatedly. The tanks just havn't been able to engage each other. Part of that WAS ALSO field insurance restrictions about using cannons during regular play for fear of hitting a player with a cannon round. They insurance companies loosened up on that restriction this year so fields and producers have been trying to adapt to make the games more realistic for tank play. Perry's field spent a fortune preparing their field for the Battle for Berlin Mainly to bulldoze tank roads and build several tank bridges and fords across the creek that meanders through the entire length of his field. And it ISN'T a level field either. LOTS of terrain. One of their GOALs was to design it to encourage more TANK on TANK engagements during play. A more realistic and tactical use of tanks. Some sections were two lane roads. A tank could meet an tank head on! They WERE going to put a kill plate on the front of the tanks too so they could go at it. Good news to MY ears. One more place to shoot a tank with MY RPG. But they decided NOT to for this game. But they could shoot as they passed each other IF their cannon could shoot down far enough when that close. Another INOVATION was to CHANGE the the rule that had been in place that the tanks machine gunners could NOT fire unless the tank was moving. One of the ideas was to keep a tank from camping at an insertion point or enemy HQ or some place where they could have an 'unfair' impact on the game. Or just sitting and hosing a lot of kids that don't have enough sense to surrender, call themselves out or just run and take their chances... Perry built DESIGNATED STOPPING AREAS that either tank could pull of into and STOP to engage players, other tanks, or defend an area (such as the one located 25 yards from the German Fuel Depot). Designated stopping areas were NOT at the insertion points or HQ except if the tank was on that HQ's side and defending it. After the game, a comment was made and consensus reached that it worked for the better BUT it would have been better if the tank pull offs didn't require backing in or back out of them for player safety. Pull through spots would be safer and some are planned to be changed as a result. The gunner was supposed to get out, be a neutral player, and to make sure they weren't backing over anyone. The problem is few players remembered that the Gunner was Neutral and UNLOADED on him - REPEATEDLY. Kind of takes the fun out of being a gunner. Try things, get feedback, evaluate, tweak, and make it better and Better and BETTER! That is what everyone it trying to do here in this post. I totally sympathize with Julius's situation. He paid good money to travel and play with his tank and couldn't play as much as he felt he should have been able to on Saturday. Perry did the right thing and invited him back and a free ride for his crew PLUS a case of paint. Far enough. So MY SUGGESTION was EASY in retrospect. BILL Baily had two metal gas can PROPS in his truck. They were used. They could have been. If the fuel depot was taken the tank could have had 15-30 minutes of fuel left to GET BACK to their HQ as an alternate refueling point. If I remember right, they could operate continuously if they had a fuel base. Only if it was taken did they run out of gas. They didn't have to actually GO to the fuel depot periodically. If they screwed up and RAN out of GAS by letting the time limit expire, it had to stay in the nearest designated pull off area. It could fire and defend until the German Command got some of the gas can props delivered by troops or another tank to the stranded tank. Each gas can delivered would be good for another 30 minutes of moving capabilities. And /OR the tank can call itself out and just return to the HQ for refueling. Anytime or after 30 minutes. Managing fuel resources IS part of a realistic war game simulation for TANK operations. Denying fuel supplies as a tactic to disrupt and defend against tank operation is also part of a realistic war game simulation. You all saw the Battle of the Bulge movie where they were fighting over the fuel depot. Historical fact worth noting as part of the Game Series Theme. This game was set up JUST like the MOVIE! Except the Germans were kicking the Allies butts at the time and the Allies were on the defensive and frustrated. Desperate acts and the ALLIES lucked out in that the GERMAN tanks weren't comming DOWN a hill on the road to the Fuel Depot. Fortunes of War... I LIKE the idea of the set up where tank operations can be limited with tactics as well as a RPG round. What about attack helicoptors? Anti Tank mines? Remote detonated satchel charges? But NOT to immobilize a player and a tank so they can't play. Just going back to the HQ for refueling every 30 minutes would REALLY impact on having a tank(S) where you need them WHEN you need them. Just having to watch your time and NOT run out of gas would be a mistake they could make that could be in a spot where the tank would be useless stationary. Having to wait 30 minutes or wait for refueling is a short delay that impacts on the game tactically. But would ruin a tankers day. Their MISTAKE if they run out of gas. Tough luck! But you CAN get back into the game shortly and try NOT to make the same mistake twice. Another THING happened at the game you don't often see. Infantry accompanying the TANKs just like in a real game simulation. When they used it, it was REAL effective gaining ground. When tanks just parade around in circles and can't stop, the infantry is NOT able to keep up in short order or offers no practial use to follow. Still, they have the 10-20 rule which DOES make it difficult to observe as Infantry and Still use the tank for effective cover for several players. Maybe the rule could be modified by the Insurance Company IF the tanks were NOT allow to back up UNLESS the Gunner was out and observing. That is the way it is now so wouldn't it be reasonably safe for infantry to use a tanks for close cover on the back as needed? The sides would still be a question in case someone trips and falls and winds up with an arm or leg going under a wheel. What do you guys think about the changes they tried and possible OTHER solutions?

Follow Ups: Re: So how do we fix it and make it better? Dave _Tackleberry_ 16:27:31 01/10/04 (1) Hey that's an great idea! Dale "Head_Hunters" DuPont 00:21:31 01/11/04 (0) Post a Followup Show your name as: DefaultRealnameBothNickname E-Mail address (eg: joeschmoe@aol.com): Show your e-mail address? DefaultYesNo Your Password: Don't have a password? CLICK HERE - Forgot your password? CLICK HERE Subject: Subject:Message: : I was there on the Russian side. : I agree with Julius and his point of view. : I agree with Perry and his point of view. : And as usual, I have MY point of view. : I know both of them and consider them my paintball 'buddies' even if Julius has been on the German side all year and me Allied. We have a friendly rivalry between his tank and my RPG I have been developing. : Julius, and every other player that is impacted negatively by a last minute change by a Producer or Field Manager are not happy about. : That has happened to me this year on several occasions with tank and anti tank RPG rules. : I showed up for a game with my RPG's Auto Rangefinder zeroed in for the 10 yard rule to ambush tanks by being as close as possible discover the Producer had INCREASE changed the rule to 20 yards! Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. : Time and effort wasted and just had to make do. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. : Julius did the RIGHT THING. He complained during the game and Perry rightly responded to get his tank back into the game rather than to change the rule in the middle of a game. Julius responded privately in person to Perry and I assume Bill the Producer to give them some feedback to help them make their games better games. They listened. : Julius posted on the paintball forums to share his experience with other players and producers for their consideration. He was polite and professional about it. Didn't Slam anyone or make it personal. : Perry did the right thing too. : Perry was the Field Manager for the field AND Head Referee for the Game and ON the field taking care of business and trying to make sure everyone was having a good time. So I'm OK with him posting with Julius post about the circumstances of the game. That is his job and responsibity. : I know he did try to get the Germans back into the game and did things in response to Julius complaint during the game. He personally went down to the German Command to give them missions because their Command radio went dead and they couldn't receive ANY mission assignments. : All of this is for the other Producers and players to consider along with Julius' concerns and comment. Live and Learn. That is how the sport gets better and scenerio games more fun and realistic. : Perry responded during by pulling the Russians back to their HQ mid day on Saturday so the Germans could regain control of the Fuel Depot and thus get Julius and the GERMAN TEAM back in the game. : The Russians didn't LIKE giving up all that turf they fought all morning to take away from the Germans either. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. : So the Russians just decided to rolled right over the top of the Germans again, re-captured the German Fuel Depot in short order, forced them all the way back into Berlin AGAIN, and started PRACTICING how to attack and enter Berlin (the trailer 'Village' complex)and destroy Hitler's Bunker which was Sunday's Final Battle for points. : But Julius and his crew were 'out of gas' and not able to play with his tank - AGAIN! Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. : The Russians were barely able to get a toe hold into one of the trailers at the break. The German put up a good fight defending Berlin. The German's got some 'Practice' defending Berlin for the Final Battle too. : Still, the Germans were frustrated about having their side overrun at will and looking around for someone / something to blame besides themselves. Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump. : But what the NEW tank / fuel depot rules did NOT anticipate was the Russian's being able to dominate 3/4 of the entire field all day Saturday. : It was basically a one sided game most of the weekend even though the Germans had a slight numbers advantage. The German's also Tactical Marker's 40 man Scenerio team, and of course JULIUS and HIS Tanker Crew which IS a force to be respected on the field. Lets not omit the other German Tanks either. : Take MY word for it... : If you take out Julius and his crew's tank, you have DONE SOMETHING not many people get to do very often. You have to ambush them and THEY know what a good spot to be ambushed from looks like and they ARE READY. IF you get a RPG shot off, you DON'T get a second. It had better count. : The Germans couldn't get out of Berlin to complete ANY mission points that was across the river. Like Perry said, he stopped giving the Russian's any missions on the field because all we had to do was send one kid down there to take that bridge and he could do it with no paint and air if he wanted too. : Perry did the best he could to keep Julius and the German's in the game and having fun. : Everyone has heard me Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump about when Producers that manipulate the game. Well, my Grump, Grump, Grump, Grump is about manipulating the game to the extent that the outcome of the game is CHANGED. : I have NO problem with a Producer/Field Manager doing what Perry did to just try to keep it from being a rout, keep both sides in the game and doing missions, having a good time (win or lose)and NOT changing the outcome of the game. : Remember this was the TOUR of DUTY SERIES with the Total of ALL the Season's Game Scores giving Bragging Rights for a Year to either the Allies or the Germans. The Bragging Rights for the Tour of Duty was based on the Outcome of the last game of the season - THIS GAME. EVERYBODY came looking for a GOOD FIGHT and the seasons Braggin Rights! : "No Mercy" was ALSO a valid point of view too. : NOW EVERYBODY NEEDS TO KNOW THERE WERE SOME MAJOR TANK RULE CHANGES FOR THIS GAME THAT HAD NEVER BEEN TRIED BEFORE. : First Bill Baily was the Producer for the Tour of Duty - Battle for Berlin Game. He shares some responsibility, credit, and blame for APPROVING the rule changes. It was a joint decision. All the other Tour of Duty Games pretty much had the same set of rules Before this one. : And there were some suggestions to make it better and some complaints that needed to be addressed. : So they tried something NEW to make scenerio gaming BETTER. When you Do, Some things WORK and some things DON'T Work. Some things CREATE NEW PROBLEMS you didn't anticipate and this situation was one of them. : A little background here: : The kill plates are mounted on each side of the tanks. All the roads for the Tour of Duty have been ONE WAY roads. So you have an Allied Tank traveling 20-50 feet behind a German tank and they don't ever have a shot at each other, tank on tank, with their cannons. D Day got silly at one point with Allied and German tanks circling Charlie Base like Indians riding around a cirle of covered wagons in a western movie. Germans in the middle of the field defending the base's bunkers and the Allies at the tree line trying to break through the circle of German tanks using Allied tanks for covering fire and break into and capture Charlie base. 30-40 yards of open ground with NO Cover. They Allied tried and died - repeatedly. : The tanks just havn't been able to engage each other. : Part of that WAS ALSO field insurance restrictions about using cannons during regular play for fear of hitting a player with a cannon round. They insurance companies loosened up on that restriction this year so fields and producers have been trying to adapt to make the games more realistic for tank play. : Perry's field spent a fortune preparing their field for the Battle for Berlin Mainly to bulldoze tank roads and build several tank bridges and fords across the creek that meanders through the entire length of his field. And it ISN'T a level field either. LOTS of terrain. : One of their GOALs was to design it to encourage more TANK on TANK engagements during play. A more realistic and tactical use of tanks. : Some sections were two lane roads. A tank could meet an tank head on! They WERE going to put a kill plate on the front of the tanks too so they could go at it. Good news to MY ears. One more place to shoot a tank with MY RPG. But they decided NOT to for this game. But they could shoot as they passed each other IF their cannon could shoot down far enough when that close. : Another INOVATION was to CHANGE the the rule that had been in place that the tanks machine gunners could NOT fire unless the tank was moving. One of the ideas was to keep a tank from camping at an insertion point or enemy HQ or some place where they could have an 'unfair' impact on the game. Or just sitting and hosing a lot of kids that don't have enough sense to surrender, call themselves out or just run and take their chances... : Perry built DESIGNATED STOPPING AREAS that either tank could pull of into and STOP to engage players, other tanks, or defend an area (such as the one located 25 yards from the German Fuel Depot). : Designated stopping areas were NOT at the insertion points or HQ except if the tank was on that HQ's side and defending it. After the game, a comment was made and consensus reached that it worked for the better BUT it would have been better if the tank pull offs didn't require backing in or back out of them for player safety. Pull through spots would be safer and some are planned to be changed as a result. The gunner was supposed to get out, be a neutral player, and to make sure they weren't backing over anyone. The problem is few players remembered that the Gunner was Neutral and UNLOADED on him - REPEATEDLY. Kind of takes the fun out of being a gunner. : Try things, get feedback, evaluate, tweak, and make it better and Better and BETTER! That is what everyone it trying to do here in this post. : I totally sympathize with Julius's situation. He paid good money to travel and play with his tank and couldn't play as much as he felt he should have been able to on Saturday. : Perry did the right thing and invited him back and a free ride for his crew PLUS a case of paint. Far enough. : So MY SUGGESTION was EASY in retrospect. BILL Baily had two metal gas can PROPS in his truck. They were used. They could have been. If the fuel depot was taken the tank could have had 15-30 minutes of fuel left to GET BACK to their HQ as an alternate refueling point. If I remember right, they could operate continuously if they had a fuel base. Only if it was taken did they run out of gas. They didn't have to actually GO to the fuel depot periodically. : If they screwed up and RAN out of GAS by letting the time limit expire, it had to stay in the nearest designated pull off area. : It could fire and defend until the German Command got some of the gas can props delivered by troops or another tank to the stranded tank. Each gas can delivered would be good for another 30 minutes of moving capabilities. : And /OR the tank can call itself out and just return to the HQ for refueling. Anytime or after 30 minutes. : Managing fuel resources IS part of a realistic war game simulation for TANK operations. Denying fuel supplies as a tactic to disrupt and defend against tank operation is also part of a realistic war game simulation. : You all saw the Battle of the Bulge movie where they were fighting over the fuel depot. Historical fact worth noting as part of the Game Series Theme. This game was set up JUST like the MOVIE! Except the Germans were kicking the Allies butts at the time and the Allies were on the defensive and frustrated. Desperate acts and the ALLIES lucked out in that the GERMAN tanks weren't comming DOWN a hill on the road to the Fuel Depot. Fortunes of War... : I LIKE the idea of the set up where tank operations can be limited with tactics as well as a RPG round. What about attack helicoptors? Anti Tank mines? Remote detonated satchel charges? : But NOT to immobilize a player and a tank so they can't play. Just going back to the HQ for refueling every 30 minutes would REALLY impact on having a tank(S) where you need them WHEN you need them. Just having to watch your time and NOT run out of gas would be a mistake they could make that could be in a spot where the tank would be useless stationary. Having to wait 30 minutes or wait for refueling is a short delay that impacts on the game tactically. But would ruin a tankers day. Their MISTAKE if they run out of gas. Tough luck! But you CAN get back into the game shortly and try NOT to make the same mistake twice. : Another THING happened at the game you don't often see. Infantry accompanying the TANKs just like in a real game simulation. When they used it, it was REAL effective gaining ground. When tanks just parade around in circles and can't stop, the infantry is NOT able to keep up in short order or offers no practial use to follow. : Still, they have the 10-20 rule which DOES make it difficult to observe as Infantry and Still use the tank for effective cover for several players. : Maybe the rule could be modified by the Insurance Company IF the tanks were NOT allow to back up UNLESS the Gunner was out and observing. That is the way it is now so wouldn't it be reasonably safe for infantry to use a tanks for close cover on the back as needed? The sides would still be a question in case someone trips and falls and winds up with an arm or leg going under a wheel. : What do you guys think about the changes they tried and possible OTHER solutions? [ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ WARPIG Tank Talk ]